# America is the leader of the free world **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921 "2015-11-18T22:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/81 "2015-11-19T15:53:31Z")
> [@](#): > > America is the leader of the free world, in that unlike other countries, the people here actually get a say in who gets to join the club. Home of the sorta free, land of the occasionally brave. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/82 "2015-11-19T15:53:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No one is denying that. But if the only way to justify the option of shutting the door is to tell outright, massive lies, then that is driven by fear. Is that the only way to justify shutting the door? Justify to whom, exactly? Ourselves? The world? I want to make something clear. I’m all right with allowing Syrian refugees - under guarded circumstances. Monitored and metered. I’d love an easier answer, one that let me feel like a really good liberal super-humanitarian, but I don’t have one. Far as I can tell, neither does anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/83 "2015-11-19T15:59:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Most every decision is one of balancing benefits against risks, and yes, we should consider that here as well. Then, one considers the steps available to mitigate risks and enhance benefits. > > What Clothahump is clearly doing, and what you seem like you may be doing, is not that. He is reacting only to the risk portion of the ratio, and in particular to a dramatic, unrealistic, Fox-esque overestimate of risk and reacting like a scared little girl to that. I haven’t watched Fox News in years. I have no idea what they’re saying on this subject, nor do I care. If I’m focusing on risk, it’s because I’m playing devil’s advocate to a thread of people ignoring that risk, or calling other’s cowards for saying risk is a factor. Not just Miller - see **elucidator’s** post above. I think there are risks worth taking - but not blindly, and certainly not because a bunch of people flap their arms and call “Bawk, bawk, chicken!” I’d love an easy answer. There’s not one. Let’s not pretend that there is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/84 "2015-11-19T16:03:20Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > **Clothahump** phrased the idea in a rather dumb way, with falsehoods stated as fact. But the thrust of the idea - that terrorists will see an opportunity to infiltrate our country if we shelter the Syrians - that’s real. That’s possible. And it’s not cowardly to consider it. It’s not real and it’s not possible. We have discussed this ad nauseam already. There are a hundred different ways for a terrorist to enter the country that are easier than posing as a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/85 "2015-11-19T16:07:14Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > I haven’t watched Fox News in years. I have no idea what they’re saying on this subject, nor do I care. > > If I’m focusing on risk, it’s because I’m playing devil’s advocate to a thread of people ignoring that risk, or calling other’s cowards for saying risk is a factor. Not just Miller - see **elucidator’s** post above. I think there are risks worth taking - but not blindly, and certainly not because a bunch of people flap their arms and call “Bawk, bawk, chicken!” > > I’d love an easy answer. There’s not one. Let’s not pretend that there is. Have you educated yourself on the process we are currently using to screen Syrian refugees? That’s an answer, and “keep doing that” is a pretty easy answer. By the way, isn’t “Small Hen” just another way of saying Chicken Little? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/86 "2015-11-19T16:10:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My concern is more along the lines of why is it our responsibility? I’m tired of the U.S. stepping up to the plate all the time. […] > > The United States needs to recognize the “American century” is over, and quit spending 3x as much as any other country on “meeting our obligations.” Well, it’s not like the rest of the world was really begging us to step up to the Middle East plate back in 2003. We chose to manufacture and vigorously sell that war as [not only a necessity for our national security but a mighty vector of democracy and freedom](http://www.ned.org/remarks-by-president-george-w-bush-at-the-20th-anniversary/): > [@George W. Bush in 2003](#): > > Iraqi democracy will succeed — and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran — that freedom can be the future of every nation. The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution. […] > > […] it would be reckless to accept the status quo. Therefore, the United States has adopted a new policy, a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East. This strategy requires the same persistence and energy and idealism we have shown before. And it will yield the same results. Given that it was to a large extent our so-called “forward strategy of freedom” that gratuitously engendered the current clusterfuck, I think it’s a bit special-snowflake of us to start whining now that we’re being expected to do too much for others. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/87 "2015-11-19T16:12:17Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Is that the only way to justify shutting the door? Justify to whom, exactly? Ourselves? The world? > > I want to make something clear\*\*. I’m all right with allowing Syrian refugees - under guarded circumstances. Monitored and metered.\*\* I’d love an easier answer, one that let me feel like a really good liberal super-humanitarian, but I don’t have one. Far as I can tell, neither does anyone else. It already is. 18-24 months of interviews and background checks and so on. Rather standard. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/88 "2015-11-19T16:14:15Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > It already is. 18-24 months of interviews and background checks and so on. > Rather standard. Then I’m cool with it. But I still don’t think being concerned about it is cowardly. I think it’s fair to feel nervous. Small Hen was my cat, BTW. But Chicken Little works too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/89 "2015-11-19T16:22:00Z")
It has been my sad experience in life that there are so few risk-free good deeds. And if I find one, it has already been done, and smugly bragged upon. Alas! I could be so much more courageous if there were nothing to fear. But aren’t we the people who took on the mighty juggernaut of Grenada? And brought it to it knees! And humbled Saddam Hussein when he refused to give up what he didn’t have? And all of this with so little, only the most massive military machine in human history, and a few thousand hydrogen bombs! Brave, brave, brave America! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/90 "2015-11-19T16:22:58Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Then I’m cool with it. But I still don’t think being concerned about it is cowardly. I think it’s fair to feel nervous. It’s not fair though, to use lies, misinformation and ignorance to spread fear. Which is exactly what **adahr** is doing here. What he (and **Clothahump** ) are doing, is simply repeating ISIS propaganda, in order to further the goals of the ISIS organization itself. They are doing ISIS’s work for them. adahr and Clothahump have told lie after lie after lie. ISIS makes up lies about sending terrorists to refugee camps. They do this because they don’t want the west to take in refugees. The morons here then repeat these lies on behalf of ISIS. I don’t think they even believe them. They are just fellow travellers with ISIS; they don’t want to take in refugees, and this is a convenient excuse. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/91 "2015-11-19T16:43:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Brave, brave, brave America! Bravely bold America Rode forth from Washington It was not afraid to die, Oh brave America It was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways Brave, brave, brave, brave America… (No, doesn’t scan without changing it to “A’murca.” Also, too silly.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/92 "2015-11-19T19:54:43Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Except that isn’t true, at all, frankly. Oil would be more expensive without Gulf State oil making it to market, but we can weather higher oil costs. Gulf State oil is a low % of U.S. oil consumption. It would be essentially the end of their economy if they couldn’t ship oil, major disparity there. Paying market price for a commodity isn’t a “reward” for spending billions protecting said commodity’s trade routes, we’re paying the same price for Gulf State oil as say, Russia or Belgium would. > > We also sent thousands of soldiers on the ground into Kuwait to rescue them from conquest by Iraq, too. We do a lot for the Gulf States above and beyond keep the Straits safe and open. My point is you need that oil shipped, period. So don’t try and paint your defending Kuwait or supporting Saudi Arabia (who, btw, are some of the worst dogfuckers in the entire region) as some kind of grand altruistic gesture you extend to the poor, beleaguered people of the Gulf. Same goes for any and all US military expenditure. It’s all self-serving, and all done to further your own interests. So quit with the whining, will you ? Or put your tanks where your mouth is and pack it all up, that’ll learn us ungrateful moochers ! Needless to say, I shan’t be holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/93 "2015-11-19T20:10:25Z")
I wonder if **Clothahump** would feel differently were he a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/94 "2015-11-19T21:59:09Z")
the governors want to keep their people safe. Perhaps they should make sure all their citizens carry an assault weapons. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/95 "2015-11-19T22:05:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not real and it’s not possible. We have discussed this ad nauseam already. There are a hundred different ways for a terrorist to enter the country that are easier than posing as a refugee. This is the part I find absolutely baffling. If ISIS wanted to get someone to commit a terrorist attack in the United States, having them pose as a refugee is the worst way you could go about it, short of trying to swim there all the way from Syria. Becoming a refugee and plodding along through that process is long, risky, and offer no guarantee whatsoever you’ll get to the USA, or anywhere. Much easier would be to simply buy a plane ticket and fly to the USA under some pretense of a temporary visit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/96 "2015-11-19T22:12:48Z")
Right. Or waltz across the southern border, which the same people demanding we keep the refugees out are constantly telling us is completely undefended. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/97 "2015-11-19T23:22:31Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Do you guys really want to stop using all those fancy toys you have and radically downsize your military? What will you spend all that budget money on? Your sick people? That sounds like a dystopian future. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921/98 "2015-11-20T00:20:17Z")
For refugees both Canada and the US have a strong record before the current crisis. Canada typically takes about [10% of the typical 100k](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp) given refugee status annually (as opposed to just showing up and being there without legal acceptance/path to citizenship/etc.) Ya Canada! The US [takes 70k.](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/09/us-will-accept-more-syrians-but-not-many.html) Canada’s still more welcoming when you consider relative populations and GDP but we’re both routinely pretty awesome for granting refugee status. 80% of the normal world total for accepting political refugees come to one of the two of us. Team North America… fuck yeah!!! Give us both your oppressed, eh. Things are different right now. On top of routine level of worldwide shittiness we’ve got large numbers of people fleeing both the fighting in Syria and/or the oppression that is life under ISIS. Canada has committed to take 25k Syrians. The US has said 10k. Before Pairs the US plan was to increase total refugees over the baseline of 70k by 15k in FY16 and 30k in FY17. So the response isn’t necessarily just 10k. It’s 45k more refugees total from the world in response to the current crisis. The plan is to accept 185k total refugees across the two years. We won’t really know how many refugees to the US end up being Syrian till after the fact. For raw numbers the US may even end up taking more than Canada if the plan doesn’t change. Canada’s still ahead when you consider relative populations/GDP but the difference is probably less striking than the minimum number put out there. It’s not as simple as going 25\>10. I’m not sure why that one single metric (Syrian refugees accepted) is the sole measure of helping in addressing the overall problem though. Neither the US or Canada is taking more than a drop in the bucket from the Syrian refugee problem. Most of them will still be huddled in camps requiring the bare necessities of life. They’ll overwhelmingly be there after we’ve patted ourselves on the back and measured dicks about who did more by accepting refugees. There’s even more Iraqis and Syrians that have been internally displaced within their own countries that need similar help. There’s plenty of Syrians and Iraqis still in the humanitarian crisis that comes from living under their new head chopping, slave trading, apocalypse seeking, oppressive, asshatish overlords. Ukraine has it’s own humanitarian crisis going on with Western Europe a little focused on other crises at the moment. Canada and the US are both doing a bunch of things to try and help that simply aren’t measured in number of Syrian refugees accepted. it’s a metric that may **feel** meaningful because of the press it’s getting. That feeling doesn’t mean it’s the most meaningful, let alone the only meaningful, metric to consider. …unless of course the goal was simply finding any excuse to attack the US in an ultranationalist fashion worthy of a stereotypical Trump supporter attacking immigrants. In which case it’s an exceedingly well chosen metric to spin into unthinking outrage. I prefer to think it was passion for helping skewed in to anger at the nearest punching bag rather than ultra nationalism. If it’s the ultra-nationalist argument, I hope you don’t mind if I skip the dick measuring phase of the “discussion” and go straight to yo momma jokes. It’s mid November. Dick measuring is a day by day weather call for me. Damn shrinkage! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-the-leader-of-the-free-world/737921.md?page=4)