# America is unraveling #3, No common ground **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483 "2008-04-08T17:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/41 "2008-04-09T00:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Okay, let’s find some common ground. Which conservative principles are you willing to sacrifice to achieve common ground? Or is “common ground” a code word for, “everyone should agree with me?” [/QUOTE] I would be happy to give up my right to bear arms in any city that has found it reasonable to search for and seize any borne arms. The curtailments already exist on most public property anyway. You tell me what conservative principals you want me to sacrifice. Hell I could be more like you if you would be more like me. That was easy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/42 "2008-04-09T00:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] No more strees than overtly liberal or conservative court stresses us now. [/quote] Yeah, but there’s no law against a court being conservative or liberal. There is one against a court being religious. Courts that can’t obey the law aren’t reliable as arbiters of the law. > [@](#): > > You have already compromised by not going after the US congress. And until such times as you do go after the US Congress for their infraction of the separation clause and win The small community, and how it lives out its days, is none of your concern unless you live there then take it up with the locals and your psychiatrist. Actually, the compromise is that anyone can practice what ever religion they like, and the law takes no sides. What you’re advocating is a violation of that compromise. > [@](#): > > I would be happy to give up my right to bear arms in any city that has found it reasonable to search for and seize any borne arms. The curtailments already exist on most public property anyway. > > You tell me what conservative principals you want me to sacrifice. Hell I could be more like you if you would be more like me. That was easy. Well, my liberal compromise is I really don’t give a shit about guns. So I guess that issue is a wash, 'tween you and me. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/43 "2008-04-09T01:09:11Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] Isn’t this what’s already happening? I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s possible to “satisfy everyone” (especially when talking about politics). To me, the presence of intelligent discussion/debate is a _good_ indicator of where this country should be. Like you said, you can’t please everyone; some concessions will have to be made. But as **Sam Stone** indicated above, how would it be decided which concessions will be made if we don’t have this “tug of war of words”? [/QUOTE] Admitted, The tug of war of words has been going on for a long long time. But of late, the last 8 years, it has been an endless droning cacophony. It pervades everything, print, TV, Radio, schools, and etc. There has not been a concession in that time that I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/44 "2008-04-09T01:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] the state and church are seperated, in that the state did not mandate that I have to believe any of the mumbo jumbo. The prayer relieved stress and the 10 commandments offered a message to would be perpetrators “You shalt not steal”. their ain’t nothing egregious in either of those and hell a little quiet time and a public admonition of what are wrong deeds relieves my stress. [/QUOTE] So you think that no one can figure out not to steal without the 10 commandments? :rolleyes: Check out the first commandment sometime. How is that going to feel for the Hindu guy who has a bunch of gods or me who has none? Exactly what place does that have in a building paid for by all our tax money. BTW, we’ve been governed by the conservative principles you love so much for 7 years. How is that working out? Global warming affects everyone - and the business loving conservatives in the US are the ones denying it. Are liberals to blame for that? What do you mean about mortality? The US life expectancy continues to climb. The non-problem of Social Security has already been mentioned. If you’d actually look at the data, not the rantings of right wing chowderheads, you’d see that Social Security will start paying out more than it gets in a bunch of years (which is not insolvent), this is a problem only with fairly pessimistic assumptions, and a small increase in the cap for taking out taxes will fix the problem very easily. Social Security was in far worse shape 24 years ago. Some of this stuff is just nonsense. I assure you there are plenty of younger people who will step up to management. I’m getting reasonably close to retirement, and I’m not old enough to remember either the war or the depression. My father, who does, is over 90. What outflow from California are you talking about. (The people in Oregon think there is one, no one else.) I moved here 11 years ago, and I don’t see it getting less crowded. I also don’t see the politics as being that different from New Jersey. Now, if you’re comparing us to the Bible Belt where religion gets pushed into one’s face, you might have a point - but I’d rather live by the Constitution myself. Though it appears you don’t like the Constitution very much, America has lasted this long because of the diversity of opinions. Too bad you don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/45 "2008-04-09T01:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] the state and church are seperated, in that the state did not mandate that I have to believe any of the mumbo jumbo. The prayer relieved stress and the 10 commandments offered a message to would be perpetrators “You shalt not steal”. their ain’t nothing egregious in either of those and hell a little quiet time and a public admonition of what are wrong deeds relieves my stress. Of course I take special interest in that commandment as it forms the basis of a perfectly functioning capitalistic society. [/QUOTE] Now I think we’re getting to an underlying issue that points to your previous contradictions. You see, the separation of church and state exists so that no one will feel excluded from any particular governmental establishment. I don’t think you’d be particularly comfortable to find your city hall promoting the tenants of Scientology. Just. keep. faith. out. of. it. A lot of our laws are already built on a lot of the ideals of some of the 10 commandments. It has nothing to do with faith, and more with common sense. The great thing about this separation? Anyone is free to pray whenever, to whomever, and wherever they want as individuals. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/46 "2008-04-09T01:32:50Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] **6.And, they don’t need nor welcome some national organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live.** [/QUOTE] Also, you’ve got this point completely turned around backwards. Let me fix it for you… **6. And, the people don’t need nor welcome some religious organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live.** ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/47 "2008-04-09T02:32:45Z")
[QUOTE=cmyk] Now I think we’re getting to an underlying issue that points to your previous contradictions. You see, the separation of church and state exists so that no one will feel excluded from any particular governmental establishment. I don’t think you’d be particularly comfortable to find your city hall promoting the tenants of Scientology. Just. keep. faith. out. of. it.. [/QUOTE] The operative word again is feel. There is nothing in the documents that talks about feelings. > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. There is nothing in what Jefferson wrote that talks about feelings. > [@](#): > > “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” There is nothing in what Thomas Jefferson wrote and Madison championed aboput feelings. > [@](#): > > . no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. Praying is not promoting.. I might add that government officials who wish to pray before the meetings and in public have been permitted in Madison’s opinion to do so. “ no man … shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief" If a man thinks he will suffer I will respect that and give a couple of minutes to collect his thoughts however he wishes. I wouldn’t care if the city officials were a coven of witches, all other things being constant. [QUOTE=cmyk] A lot of our laws are already built on a lot of the ideals of some of the 10 commandments. It has nothing to do with faith, and more with common sense. The great thing about this separation? Anyone is free to pray whenever, to whomever, and wherever they want as individuals. [/QUOTE] An elected official is also an individual and must be allowed certain leeway so that his public duties do not conflict with his matters of religion. I might add that feelings are very powerful and all people react in automatic knee jerk fashion to certain stimulus. I found [this](http://www.moretolife.org/courses_how-it-works.cfm) course that I took 10 years ago very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/48 "2008-04-09T02:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=cmyk] Also, you’ve got this point completely turned around backwards. Let me fix it for you… **6. And, the people don’t need nor welcome some religious organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live.** [/QUOTE] You are protected by what Thomas Jefferson wrote and Madison championed > [@](#): > > . no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. No not turned around, both are true. It seems both are valid. 1. And, they don’t need nor welcome some national organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live ---
**Author:** ![Anomalous\_Reading](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/49 "2008-04-09T02:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] The operative word is feel. Hell, I get bad feelings from a lot of people, especially some of those invoking their rights to free speech. The separation clause should be invoked if an elected official stands up and calls me a sinner. If that happened I would be him like stink on shit. [/QUOTE] Ummmm… how’s that religion thing working out for you? This is remarkably inconsistent - as has your entire round of posting in this thread, up to and including your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/50 "2008-04-09T03:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=cmyk] Also, you’ve got this point completely turned around backwards. Let me fix it for you… **6. And, the people don’t need nor welcome some religious organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live.** [/QUOTE] ..Especially when they don’t have much hair left, eh **cmyk**? ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/51 "2008-04-09T03:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading] Ummmm… how’s that religion thing working out for you? This is remarkably inconsistent - as has your entire round of posting in this thread, up to and including your OP. [/QUOTE] Ummmmm… You find it incongruous that a proponent of freedom of religion would not be a holy roller. You are not up to finding the flaws in the logic and must resort to general dismissal. You have proved my suspicion that no common ground can be found, at least in your mind, regarding the freedom of religion debate. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/52 "2008-04-09T03:32:15Z")
Considering that up to a year ago, he was a fundamentalist Christian and has almost always (in every discussion he and I have had about religion) argued from religion’s view point…you just proved you have a remarkable lack of insight. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/53 "2008-04-09T08:47:45Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Ummmmm… You find it incongruous that a proponent of freedom of religion would not be a holy roller. You are not up to finding the flaws in the logic and must resort to general dismissal. You have proved my suspicion that no common ground can be found, at least in your mind, regarding the freedom of religion debate. [/QUOTE] Who talks like that? I just wanna pinch your cheeks and pat you on the head! ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/54 "2008-04-09T15:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] ..Especially when they don’t have much hair left, eh **cmyk**? [/QUOTE] Damn skippy! ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/55 "2008-04-09T15:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Ummmmm… You find it incongruous that a proponent of freedom of religion would not be a holy roller. You are not up to finding the flaws in the logic and must resort to general dismissal. You have proved my suspicion that no common ground can be found, at least in your mind, regarding the freedom of religion debate. [/QUOTE] It seems everything you want and are describing can be found in a **church**. Who in their right mind would want to hold church in a public hall of some sort? See? It’s simple. Practice religion in your home, at a church (imagine that!), or in the gawdamn street for all anyone cares. Why do you need to bring it into a civil gathering? It sounds compulsive the way you’re describing these “feelings”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/56 "2008-04-09T16:04:14Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Ummmmm… You find it incongruous that a proponent of freedom of religion would not be a holy roller. [/QUOTE] Sorry, dude. You are not a proponent of religious freedom in this debate. Quite the opposite, in fact. Religious freedom can only be guaranteed in this country by strict observation of the seperation between church and state. This wall is vital to the health of government, individual liberties, and religion. I support the first ammendment because I do not want to see _any_ of these three institutions diminished. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/57 "2008-04-09T16:20:37Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] You are protected by what Thomas Jefferson wrote and Madison championed No not turned around, both are true. It seems both are valid. 1. And, they don’t need nor welcome some national organization splitting fucking hairs telling them how they should live [/QUOTE] No, it’s not valid. **You can’t have it both ways.** You want religion in the state, then you’re gonna have to accept state in your religion. HEY! I have a better idea, let’s separate the two. That way, we can have our cake and eat it too. Now the gov can stay out of church, and vice versa. And the congregation shouted out a big “DUH!” and they rejoiced with music and the holy tambourine. Unless you see the governmental channels as a way of proselytizing? If so, how very un-American. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/58 "2008-04-09T18:02:57Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] The national organization did so in San Diago see [Mount Soledad Cross - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad_cross_controversy) the entry on aug 21 ,2006 [/quote] No, they didn’t. The ACLU was not the plaintiff in that case. The named plaintiffs in that case were three individuals who lived in the area, Dr. Richard Smith, a Jewish American veteran; Mina Sagheb, his Muslim American wife; a Judith Copeland; and the Jewish War Veterans, who had three posts in the San Diego area. If those individuals in the community had not objected, the case could not have been filed. > [@focusonz](#): > > No they should not make a challenge. Again that is left up to the members of the community to figure out and legal counsel to hire by the plaintiff. I’m not sure what you mean here. The point I’m making is that the ACLU can’t and doesn’t just come in “splitting hairs telling [people] how they should live.” It has to represent an individual or group with standing to sue. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/59 "2008-04-09T20:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Admitted, The tug of war of words has been going on for a long long time. But of late, the last 8 years, it has been an endless droning cacophony. It pervades everything, print, TV, Radio, schools, and etc. There has not been a concession in that time that I can think of. [/QUOTE] I agree that there haven’t been many concessions in the past 8 years. I think a major reason for that, though, is that a lot of people _say_ they are interested in compromising, when in fact they just continue to blindly push their agenda. “Endless droning cacophony” is a very apt description of this behavior. However, I don’t think this is an indication that our country is unraveling. This type of stuff has been happening for as long as I’ve been around, and much further back than that. [QUOTE=focusonz] [QUOTE=cmyk] Now I think we’re getting to an underlying issue that points to your previous contradictions. You see, the separation of church and state exists so that no one will feel excluded from any particular governmental establishment. I don’t think you’d be particularly comfortable to find your city hall promoting the tenants of Scientology. Just. keep. faith. out. of. it.. [/quote] The operative word again is feel. There is nothing in the documents that talks about feelings. > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. [/quote] There’s no need for the documents to _explicitly_ talk about feelings, because they are _implicitly_ talking about them. Why else would we have freedom to have whatever system of beliefs we want, if not to “feel” safe and secure from having those beliefs intruded on by the state? [QUOTE=focusonz] Praying is not promoting.. I might add that government officials who wish to pray before the meetings and in public have been permitted in Madison’s opinion to do so. “ no man … shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief" If a man thinks he will suffer I will respect that and give a couple of minutes to collect his thoughts however he wishes. [/quote] Why can’t the government officials pray silently before the meetings? Or why can’t they get together with a bunch of other like-minded officials - outside of the meeting - to pray publicly? [QUOTE=focusonz] > [@cmyk](#): > > A lot of our laws are already built on a lot of the ideals of some of the 10 commandments. It has nothing to do with faith, and more with common sense. The great thing about this separation? Anyone is free to pray whenever, to whomever, and wherever they want as individuals. An elected official is also an individual and must be allowed certain leeway so that his public duties do not conflict with his matters of religion. [/quote] Why do they need some kind of leeway? Leeway for what? No one is trying to impede their personal beliefs; they’re only trying to impede the _forcing_ of those personal beliefs onto unwilling citizens. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483/60 "2008-04-09T20:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=bump] People and politicans need to realize that the majority of people on both sides of the arguments are neither corrupt, nor stupid or ignorant, and that their sides may have very reasonable concerns or questions that aren’t in your conception of things. [/QUOTE] **bump** , this is perfect. So, so true. I’m a fairly liberal person; my dad’s a fairly conservative person. We both want the same things for our community. We want good public schools and safe neighborhoods. We want small businesses to thrive. We want to know that if you work hard, you’ll get ahead. We want remarkably similar ends, we just differ on the means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-is-unraveling-3-no-common-ground/444483.md?page=4)