# America! It's People Helping People - Unless a 'scary' guy is involved **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031 "2004-06-24T15:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/81 "2004-06-27T22:00:42Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > Its unAmerican!! :rolleyes: It’s ineffective if you walk up to him with pepper spray and he pulls a gun out and shoots you. Very ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/82 "2004-06-27T23:08:32Z")
> [@Ryle Dup](#): > > :rolleyes: > > It’s ineffective if you walk up to him with pepper spray and he pulls a gun out and shoots you. Very ineffective. :rolleyes: yourself. I was making a joke. You’ll note I haven’t given my opinion on this particular subject, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/83 "2004-06-27T23:12:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Whereas if you are using pepper spray and the perp isn’t brandishing a gun you move in close and spray his face. You don’t have to worry about accidentally killing anyone, and if the perp is using his victim as a shield, he’s gonna have hide his face behind her, not a very effective move for perping it up as you are then free to get in really close and spray him anyway. > > Whassamatta with a solution that doesn’t have a prospect of leaving brains spattered on the sidewalk? Pepper spray is one of those things that a lot of people who have never used it before seem to think it’s a panacea. I would hazard, based on conversations I’ve had with police officers trained in both firearms and pepper spray, as well as actual use myself (not against people…yet…), that pepper spray would be more difficult to use effectively in many situations. It is correct of course that, barring an allegeric or asthmatic reaction, the pepper spray has almost no chance of serious injury or death. Note as well that it’s not a “pinpoint” weapon and you would end up getting the victim as well, FWIW. And if you can believe some of the claims and cites made in any thread about peanut allergies and other deadly allergies on this Board, there could be potentially millions of people in the US who might die from pepper spray use. And then you can add to that the fact that some (I won’t say “many” since I have no idea how many) jurisdictions effectively treat pepper spray the same as a handgun in terms of assault and for carry purposes, I think I’d rather have a solution I’ve been trained in and am comfortable with. I could also add that spraying pepper spray into the air is unlikely to anything but irritate a passing blue jay. Whereas firing a gun into the air tends to strike Fear into a wide array of people - the perpetrator, as well as everyone in earshot with opposable digits or a mechanical robot arm, who grab their phones and call the police. Pepper spray, while admittedly debilatating, does not strike Fear into someone like a gunshot sound does. All of this can be tied back to the OP, which really deals with “nobody taking ANY action”, be it calling the authorities, yelling for help, pepper spray, using a gun in the manner I suggested, or taking out a pair of titanium nunchuks and doing a triple-backflip over the attacker, stunning them with a well-placed blow to the back of their head. The first action you need to take, if you have any time at all, is to get the proper authorities notified and/or involved. Then you see what you can do to prevent the crime by physically passive means - yelling, attracting attention, threatening, negotiating, firing a warning shot, or offering a Rolo to them. If that doesn’t work and the situation escaltes, then it seems to me by my moral code that I am honour bound to proactively prevent the crime from happening and to save the victim if possible. The thought of having to confront and possibly injure, even kill a criminal fills me with no anticipation or joy whatsoever. But I can’t see how, as a victim of rape, I could stand by and not do **everything possible** to prevent that from happening. Even at the risk of my own life. I guess that makes me a bad person or “crazy”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/84 "2004-06-27T23:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Here is a link to a section of the Code of Virginia pertaining to shooting at someone. > [http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...00+cod+18.2-279](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...00+cod+18.2-279) > If you shoot another person in Virginia, you’ve committed a crime, whether that person is robbing your house, threatening to kill you, raping your daughter, or if you just don’t like his/her looks. It’s up to a judge or jury to decide whether to convict you and the severity of the offense. I’m not an expert of Virginia law by any means, but from what I can see that is not true. From the next button on your link. _bolding mine_ > [@](#): > > § 18.2-280. Willfully discharging firearms in public places. > … > D. This section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his official duties **nor to any other person whose said willful act is otherwise justifiable or excusable at law in the protection of his life or property, or is otherwise specifically authorized by law**. That seems pretty clear that you can shoot someone to save your life without commiting a crime. Of course whether or not it’s justifiable or excusable will still be determined by the police and the courts. Maybe it’s just an issue of sematics, but there is a big difference to me between “it’s always a crime they just may choose not to convict you on”, and “If it’s justifiable and excusable self-defense it’s not a crime” Of course it mentions nothing about protecting someone else, so it’s pretty moot to this thread anyway. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/85 "2004-06-27T23:43:41Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > So rape is punishable by death? > > And I like your ‘walk up close and rescue her’ approach. Thank goodness you’re positive he doesn’t have a weapon of any kind. First, I’ve been remiss in not keeping up with this thread. **jarbabyj** , I have to jump in before reading the rest of your utter horseshit. Having a gun, and not shooting it, can do a lot of good if the guy thinks you **might** use it. Whether it’s loaded or not. Death penalty for rape? In some cases, sure. I know a few people that were raped, one savagely. So I have no sympathy for any of those pieces of shit. You do. Whatever. Now fuck off. I disagree with you more often than not, but your support of protecting a rapist has erased all respect I had for you. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/86 "2004-06-27T23:47:35Z")
Well, the laws of the State of New York are probably a bit more relevant in this case than the laws of Virginia anyway. From the [New York Penal Code, Article 35](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a12.html): > [@](#): > > A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless…He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or robbery. Also: > [@](#): > > A private person acting on his own account may use physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person whom he reasonably believes to have committed an offense and who in fact has committed such offense; and he may use deadly physical force for such purpose when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to…Effect the arrest of a person who has committed murder, manslaughter in the first degree, robbery, forcible rape or forcible sodomy and who is in immediate flight therefrom. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/87 "2004-06-27T23:47:59Z")
And of course the point of my post. :smack: If NYC had a CCW law, the guy wouldn’t know how many people had sidearms. Even if nobody did, he wouldn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/88 "2004-06-27T23:54:28Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > I guess you guys aren’t familiar with **duffer’s** m.o. I don’t think it was a typo. I think, technically, what he was doing is called being an asshole. > > See, **duffer** has this condition that leads him to respond to things that haven’t happened yet, and probably never will. He’s done this in the past, and based on this, my hypothesis as to what happened follows: > > When **duffer** read the OP, his condition led him to have a sort of anti-liberal seizure, and he went off on a sarcastic gun control rant. His point, as far as it exists, is that those people who said “It’s a good thing that NYC doesn’t have concealed carry permits, she could have been shot!” are wrong. Of course, by our standards, nobody, you know, _said_ that, but that never stops **duffer.** He went on sarcastically trying to point out that if he was there with his piece, he could have shot the rapist and everything would have returned to normal. > > So all of you imaginary posters who were celebrating the fact that nobody in New York has a concealed weapons permit, because this girl who got raped could have been shot, consider yourselves served. > > As far as the real point of the thread- the first person quoted in the OP was only thirteen, so that explains it a little bit, I think. The cops did show up, apparently, so I guess somebody called the cops. I agree that more should have been done if possible, but thirteen is pretty young. The 15-20 year olds have no such excuse. Wow! You really nailed it there, Sparky! I wonder how many paragraphs of diatribe you could vomit up for us if I 4 or 5 sentences! Way to bust me on that one. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/89 "2004-06-28T03:07:40Z")
I just want to jump in and say that I think **Una** has done credit to her side with her posts. Like the OP I find the sort of “If I’d been there and had my gun…” posts these kinds of threads usually attract to be deeply disturbing, but **Una** ’s been the exception here with a post describing a course of action that seems reasonable even if it’s not what I’d do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/90 "2004-06-28T03:55:18Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Pepper spray is one of those things that a lot of people who have never used it before seem to think it’s a panacea. I would hazard, based on conversations I’ve had with police officers trained in both firearms and pepper spray, as well as actual use myself (not against people…yet…), that pepper spray would be more difficult to use effectively in many situations. It is correct of course that, barring an allegeric or asthmatic reaction, the pepper spray has almost no chance of serious injury or death. Note as well that it’s not a “pinpoint” weapon and you would end up getting the victim as well, FWIW. And if you can believe some of the claims and cites made in any thread about peanut allergies and other deadly allergies on this Board, there could be potentially millions of people in the US who might die from pepper spray use. Cards on the table time, then, Una. I learned about pepper spray initially from a police officer who gave a series of lectures on personal safety for an organization I once worked for. He said it was absolutely the best self-defence going at the time (this was about a decade ago). He said that proper use was important, but that it was mostly a matter of taking the spray out and practicing with it so you would understand how it works, before you use it. Things like bringing one hand up to sheild the eyes before spraying, getting in close enough to hit your target, etc. I have since read and seen several stories that reinforce these points. Your points about using non-aggressive tactics first is well taken, in fact, the police officer recommended them as the first defence – always talk rather than fight – and his best advice if you were the one being assaulted was to run away if possible. True, there’s a risk of allergic reactions to pepper spray, but any time you’re using force you’re in risky territory. There is a risk of getting shot if the perp has a gun no matter what kind of weapon you use. I just think most people who are worried about being beaten up or raped should think hard about buying pepper spray and learning to use it, rather than toting around a gun. The gunshot effect is true enough, but a loud whistle can also attract a lot of attention and put the perp on notice that his actions are not going unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/91 "2004-06-28T13:53:07Z")
First of all, I am not defendning a rapist. Nor am I belittling rape. I am speaking of what the bystanders witnessed. At the point when people saw the woman she was not being raped, she was being held in a hammerlock (elbows pulled behind the back, perfect for becoming a human shield). Of course we knew what she was going to suffer, but AT. THAT. POINT., the point in time I’m referring to, she was being ‘dragged away’. That is a fact. He was not raping her right there in front of people. The key in rape and abduction is NOT TO LET THE PERSON GET HER TO A SECOND LOCATION. That is the recipe for disaster. Second location almost always = rape AND murder. However, had I been that woman and saw three people whip out guns and say “don’t worry, we’ll get him” I would have been fifty times more scared since obviously both my assailant and I would have been twisting and struggling, not standing like a nice neat clay pigeon. If five people standing around said “Hey fucker, get away from her,” and started charging the assailant while one called police, I would have been confident I would have had an opportunity to escape. Duffer, in case you haven’t been following along, I HAVE been raped, and no, I don’t feel the man who attacked me should have been murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/92 "2004-06-28T19:04:29Z")
JBJ, haven’t your read any of the applicable laws that other people have posted? Blowing some sickos head off while he’s raping a woman isn’t murder, it’s justifyable homicide, and the world would be a much better place if it was one engaged in a lot more often. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/93 "2004-06-28T19:17:15Z")
Thank you dave. However, when the five people saw the woman she was not being raped. She was being dragged away. Is that justifiable homicide? We can all assume she was going to be raped. My goal is to prevent that girl from being raped AND prevent that man from being murdered. There are many options short of ‘walk up close and waste him’ that could have prevented this rape. There are very very few homicides I would ever find justifiable, seeing as I believe nearly anyone on the planet can be rehabilitated. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/94 "2004-06-28T19:22:54Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > :rolleyes: yourself. I was making a joke. You’ll note I haven’t given my opinion on this particular subject, yes? :rolleyes:. It was a crap joke and for not taking sides you sure do like making jokes about one position. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/95 "2004-06-28T19:25:07Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > There are very very few homicides I would ever find justifiable, seeing as I believe nearly anyone on the planet can be rehabilitated. I believe that everybody should get a pony for their next birthday, but that doesn’t make it very realistic, does it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/96 "2004-06-28T19:27:49Z")
The smug smilie at the end really makes me take your statement to heart. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/97 "2004-06-28T19:35:20Z")
It should have kept you from taking the statement too seriously, but I guess not. Light banter aside, I do think it far more likely that everyone will get a pony than that rapists will be rehabilitated in any signifigant numbers, and personally I don’t see any signifigant reason we (society) should try. I do commend you for sticking to your personal beliefs, however, particularly as you are a rape victim yourself. That takes a great deal of courage. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/98 "2004-06-28T19:43:26Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Thank you dave. However, when the five people saw the woman she was not being raped. She was being dragged away. Is that justifiable homicide? We can all assume she was going to be raped. According to the state laws of New York, as quoted by **MEBuckner** above, I think shooting and killing the assailant in this instance would have been justifiable homicide, yes. I suppose it would depend on how the courts defined “kidnapping” in this instance, but it seems clear to me that the way the law is written the shooter would have been acquitted of any charges had he or she killed the assailant. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/99 "2004-06-28T19:47:35Z")
My point is, I don’t care if the LAW says that we can shoot anyone that looks at us cross eyed…I don’t think that it is up to another human being to decide who lives or dies on this earth. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031/100 "2004-06-28T19:52:15Z")
I’m a little reluctant to wade back into this, but I have a question. The OP was a rant about people who did nothing to help when a woman was being abducted. What, in your opinion **jarbabyj** , should they have done. Call 911? Fine. Since the police did show up in this case, it appears that somebody did. Now you seem to be saying that they should have stopped the assailant from leaving with her. How? I don’t agree with you that shootings are never justified, but I do think deadly force should be the method of last resort. I’m just not sure what the first resort should be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-its-people-helping-people-unless-a-scary-guy-is-involved/252031.md?page=6)