Calling 911 would have been sufficient? You’re sure? What’s the average police response time where you live?
“Get close and waste him” aside, in most cases when crimes are stopped by armed citizens no one gets shot.
What if you shoot someone who’s not threatening your person or property, like the rapist in the OP when you’re just a bystander? Let’s assume you’re a great shot and he doesn’t have time to play human shield with her either.
I was raped. I still don’t think that pulling out a gun would be the best move in this case.
Like a number of the other posters thought, and to reiterate my point from previously, I’m shocked that no one even yelled something about calling the cops, or maybe grouped up to look menacing or to move towards the rapist.
I guess you guys aren’t familiar with duffer’s m.o. I don’t think it was a typo. I think, technically, what he was doing is called being an asshole.
See, duffer has this condition that leads him to respond to things that haven’t happened yet, and probably never will. He’s done this in the past, and based on this, my hypothesis as to what happened follows:
When duffer read the OP, his condition led him to have a sort of anti-liberal seizure, and he went off on a sarcastic gun control rant. His point, as far as it exists, is that those people who said “It’s a good thing that NYC doesn’t have concealed carry permits, she could have been shot!” are wrong. Of course, by our standards, nobody, you know, said that, but that never stops duffer. He went on sarcastically trying to point out that if he was there with his piece, he could have shot the rapist and everything would have returned to normal.
So all of you imaginary posters who were celebrating the fact that nobody in New York has a concealed weapons permit, because this girl who got raped could have been shot, consider yourselves served.
As far as the real point of the thread- the first person quoted in the OP was only thirteen, so that explains it a little bit, I think. The cops did show up, apparently, so I guess somebody called the cops. I agree that more should have been done if possible, but thirteen is pretty young. The 15-20 year olds have no such excuse.
A person carrying a concealed weapon doesn’t neccesarily need to fatally shoot the rapist to stop a rape from occurring. Merely brandishing the weapon, perhaps firing a warning shot into the air, should be enough to scare most would be attackers from continuing.
Do you think he’d of lt her go, and then reconsidered his criminal ways and not looked for an easier victim? Turned over a new leaf because someone called 911? Turned hisself in?
I can tell you 2 things with more than reasonable certainty.
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This was not the 1st assault by this rapist.
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This will not be the last.
Yeah, I would’ve called 911. But I wouldn’t lose ANY sleep if someone had shot this mutt.
Considering I don’t feel death is a punishment even for murder, you can see how I disagree that it shouldn’t be a punishment for attempted rape.
I happen to know a rapist who raped one person, as far as I know, and he is now a perfectly fine, functioning, successful member of society.
I really wish this hadn’t become a gun thread.
Deadly Force is generally authorized to prevent death or serious bodily injury, or to protect items of vital national interest. I am of the personal opinion that violent abduction and rape meet that criteria.
First logical step in that situation would be to yell loudly at the guy, followed very closely by dialing 911. If a firearm is handy, brandishing it will very probably take the criminal’s mind off of his actions, and put it on his survival/escape. Abduction does not merit death, but it merits the threat of death when the implied or stated intent of the abduction is rape.
The object is to stop the crime.
Calling 911 is obviously the prudent thing to do and Duffer’s ninnyhammer version of John Wayne is patently ridiculous, BUT. . .
in a hypothetical scenario where I could shoot the assailant with no chance of hitting the victim, I’d have no problem killing a rapist. Rapists have forefeited the breathing privileges, IMO.
And this is hardly a novelty for NYC. Just ask Kitty Genovese (if you have a Ouija board handy, that is)
Other than the last sentence, I’m in agreement with you - this is what I was trying to say but more succintly put. And in the case in the OP, if multiple people are too scared to even yell something, I don’t trust them handling a gun in the same situation - especially if I’m the human shield that’s being dragged around.
As Exgineer pointed out, calling 911 is no guarantee that the woman would have been saved. She and the rapist could both be long gone by the time the police arrived.
Have you ever watched any of the crime programs on cable? The things that happen to some women and young girls are the most horrible, vicious and reprehensible things a person could possibly imagine or have happen to them. Some of it I would wish on no one short of Bin Laden or Hussein or their ilk. She could still have been abducted, carried off to some other location or even a house or van, subjected to hours or maybe days of hideous torture, and ultimately killed…not to mention that the same fate or worse could then be visited on more women in the future, and I would not have hesitated in the slightest to blow his brains out (although in reality I would probably have tried to hold or wound him enough to keep him from getting away with something like a shot in the leg if he tried to bolt).
But make no mistake, I would have no qualms about killing a rapist in order to save the victim.
Trust me, Starving Artist, you don’t have to describe rape to me. And still, after living through it, I don’t see rapists as rabid animals that need to be put down. People can be rehabilitated.
You’re right, taking a woman to a secondary location is almost a prescription for murder, but if a gun were thrust in my hand I’d fire a warning shot, or something at his foot…I would not try and ‘waste him’.
I guess we’ll have to disagree on this point.
I would point out also, jarbabyj that you appear to be mixing the rationale for shooting the rapist. It isn’t to punish him, such as you seem to suggest in your opposition to killing him, but to save the woman in question. Things are routinely done to criminals in the act of trying to apprehend or stop them that would not be done to them as punishment once they are sentenced.
I’m very sorry to learn that you have apparently been a victim yourself. It makes your stance even more admirable. It’s just that in my opinion, the most admirable stance isn’t always the most desirable one.
But in essence, it is a punishment since it is a reaction to a negative behavior. “You grabbed this girl and that is wrong, my response is to kill you”
There are several other options, such as shoot to wound that would accomplish the same thing.
I strongly sympathize with your other points, but must demur from this last one. If one fears for oneself or others strong enough to shoot at a person, shoot to kill.
Not out of a feeling of needing to punish, and (hopefully) not in anger, but to protect oneself and/or others. Unless you’re an expert marksman, shooting to wound can be a recipe for disaster. Flesh wounds will enrage and adrenalize the assailant, and suddenly the gun is taken from the shooter, and things get much worse.
I have a friend who was killed trying to save a damsel in distress. But I don’t think that’s the way it usually happens. However, I can see how the bystanders could be afraid…not only for themselves, but for what this guy might do to the girl. I’d like to think I’d jump to the aid of anyone in any situation, but I can’t realistically say that it would always happen that way. There are so many variables that play into that spit-second decision.
jumping to the girl’s aid is very different from picking up your phone and dialing 911
Use of deadly force to prevent a crime is not punishment. Look at it this way - while the guy is dragging the screaming girl, deadly force is legally justified (in some jurisdictions). If you pull out a gun and point it at him, and he then drops the girl and runs away, deadly force is no longer justified - the crime is no longer being committed, the victim is safe, so you no longer have any justification to shoot the perpetrator.
BTW, Qadgop is also right. No law enforcement is trained to shoot to wound - if they have to shoot, they always shoot at the center of mass, which just happens to be the heart.
Well, we all know my feelings on cops using deadly force.
Ok the point is not about using Guns to scare or stop rapes… its about people’s inaction and passive attitude to a crime happening right before them. The “its not my problem” attitude.
Back to duffer… people only have courage when they have guns to stop a crime ? Not having a gun means you got no balls or brain ?
Like many said... just shouting "we are calling the cops" might have stopped the guy. Even shouting at the guy might make him reluctant for God's sake... its pretty sad state of affairs.
A similar thing happened some decades ago in our zoo... a kid fell in a animal cage. The "otter" like brazilian creatures are normally docile but they had newborn young that week. They attacked the kid. 50 or so people just stared and did nothing but shout. Then a Sargent arrived saw it happening and jumped in to save the kid. Some people threw shoes then... result... the kid survived... but the Sargent died of his wounds. No thanks to the people around.