# America needs a Conservative Party. Discuss. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377 "2005-11-23T03:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/41 "2005-11-23T22:23:59Z")
New York State is way ahead of you: we have a Conservative party, but their [manifesto](http://www.cpnys.org/goals2001/goals_2005.html) doesn’t really seem to match much of yours, especially on social issues. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/42 "2005-11-23T22:34:13Z")
Sorry, **Paul** , but you’re a Libertarian. Deal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/43 "2005-11-23T22:40:53Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Sorry, **Paul** , but you’re a Libertarian. Deal. To be fair, I’d say he’s a libertarian (small “l”). The actual Libertarian Party can be pretty whacky. But they do get .3% (3/10 of 1 percent) of the vote in presidential elections! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/44 "2005-11-23T23:04:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And it would differ from the Libertarian Party how? In effectiveness, one hopes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/45 "2005-11-24T00:53:30Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > There is no such thing as overcrowding in America. Excuse me? Would you care to elaborate on that point? There is certainly overcrowding in urban areas. Open spaces in New Mexico don’t really count. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/46 "2005-11-24T01:32:04Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > In effectiveness, one hopes. 🙂 That would require changing a lot more than the party’s name, or anything at all about the party itself. (See post #26.) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/47 "2005-11-24T03:02:02Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Excuse me? Would you care to elaborate on that point? There is certainly overcrowding in urban areas. Open spaces in New Mexico don’t really count. Good Morning all, why am I up so early? It is the weekend here. You are all right. I am a fairly doctrinaire Libertarian. Perhaps we should give up on the LP and instead work on bringing the Republicans back where they ought to be. As for overcrowding, it does not exist in any important way. Picture if you will the most gruesome example of overcrowding. See it in your mind’s eye? OK, I bet you it is a poor place. Poverty is the problem, not overpopulation. Picture again the worse-case overcrowding scenario. OK, now imagine if we raise their wealth to that of (say) the American GDP. See how much nicer it is? Manhattan is ‘overcrowded’ but people like to live their because they are rich enough that overcrowding does not matter much to them. If we could make Bangladeshis rich, their overpopulation problem becomes a nonissue. ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/48 "2005-11-24T04:32:34Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Good Morning all, why am I up so early? It is the weekend here. > > You are all right. I am a fairly doctrinaire Libertarian. Perhaps we should give up on the LP and instead work on bringing the Republicans back where they ought to be. > > As for overcrowding, it does not exist in any important way. Picture if you will the most gruesome example of overcrowding. See it in your mind’s eye? OK, I bet you it is a poor place. > > Poverty is the problem, not overpopulation. Picture again the worse-case overcrowding scenario. OK, now imagine if we raise their wealth to that of (say) the American GDP. See how much nicer it is? > > Manhattan is ‘overcrowded’ but people like to live their because they are rich enough that overcrowding does not matter much to them. If we could make Bangladeshis rich, their overpopulation problem becomes a nonissue. I’m afraid that this misrepresents the problem to some degree. I live on Miami Beach. Our real estate prices have been soaring because “afforable housing” has become $1100 a month studio apartments, $500K+ condominiums, and million dollar homes. If you don’t believe those number, pick up a copy of the Miami Herald. Manhattan is overcroweded because it’s a major business centre, entertainment mecca, and airport/seaport. The demand for workers exceeds the avilable housing. The most crowded places in Miami (twin city to Miami Beach, and a five minute drive away) are the places where the working stiffs live, not “the poor”. Florida is becoming becoming unlivable for the middle class, and that problem isn’t confined to Florida alone. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/49 "2005-11-24T04:52:09Z")
I agree with the people that say you passed way over to the Libertarian line in the last few amendments. You can just sign up now if that is what you like. I am actually a registered Libertarian but I will be the first to tell you that we are a bunch of nut jobs. Some of the stuff they focus on like open borders makes me blush. A real libertarian party with a more practical focus would be a great idea IMHO. Even still, that probably wouldn’t attract enough people. Your original statements would be workable though if they got a critical mass. It would attract crossover from Democrats and Republicans. It would especially attractive to males but not exclusively especially in the South and Midwest. You are going to have to temper that inclusion stuff down though. Many of the qualities of your parties don’t map well to real people. If you want everything you have listed so far, you are just talking about a revamped libertarian party. You can create a conservative party but much of the controversial social stuff has to go. You can’t have it all champ. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/50 "2005-11-24T05:30:45Z")
In truth I am a Libertarian, registered in the non-tax state of Nevada. (The have all sorts of looney parties in Nevada!) The only hope the LP has is to attract enough votes that one of the big parties will steal our ideas. Then we win. As for Miami, no problem, triple the income of the middle class. Tough? Sure. Getting rid of the people? Much, much tougher. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/51 "2005-11-24T05:35:15Z")
**Paul** , you would like the Guns ‘n’ Dope Party founded by Robert Anton Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/52 "2005-11-24T09:53:56Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So… Conservatives are unimaginative, intolerant, unforgiving, and racist. > > Is that about it? You left out baby eating. Yes, thats a more concise way of expresssing it. **PiS** was trying to redefine the conservative label as libertarian and so needed reminding what conservative actually is. Conservativism opposes change. Der. If you look at this world values survey graphic (link below), you can see that the more conservative nations are the ones that over time have not moved far from the bottom right of the chart, where the emphasis is on traditional values and survival. [Inglehart Values Map](http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/statistics/index.html). Click on ‘Some findings’ and then click on the third chart from the top. This shows that as nations develop towards a more civil society over time, they move toward the top right of the chart. The two dimensions of the chart are: 1. Traditional/Secular-rational values - measure of importance of religion, and 2. Survival/Self-expression values - linked to transition from industrial society to post-industrial societies. So since we are into pigeon-holeing, I am pointing out that conservatism prevents progress toward a more civil society, which is the last thing the USA needs. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/53 "2005-11-24T11:27:43Z")
No Conservatives are not opposed to change per se. Conservatives are for the preparation of what we see as the good things in the world. We are not interested in Stasis. We want the world to be a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/54 "2005-11-24T11:29:04Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > No Conservatives are not opposed to change per se. Conservatives are for the PRESERVATION of what we see as the good things in the world. We are not interested in Stasis. We want the world to be a better place. Silly Spool Chocker! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/55 "2005-11-24T15:31:03Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > No Conservatives are not opposed to change per se. Conservatives are for the preparation of what we see as the good things in the world. We are not interested in Stasis. We want the world to be a better place. Unlike other political ideologues, who are openly dedicated to making the world a worse place? Look, **Paul,** the word “conservative” obviously has meant more than one thing in America political discourse, but the following sums up pretty much what **most** people understand it to mean, at least WRT the the modern conservative movement that got its start with Goldwater’s presidential campaign in 1964 (something radically different from what it meant before then in the U.S. and what it still means in Europe). From _The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America,_ by John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge (New York: The Penguin Press, 2004): > [@](#): > > The exceptionalism of the American Right is partly a matter of its beliefs. The first two definitions of “conservative” offered by the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_ are “adverse to rapid change” and “moderate, avoiding extremes.” Neither of these seems a particularly good description of what is going on in America at the moment. “Conservatism” – no less than its foes “liberalism” or “communitarianism” – has become one of those words that are now as imprecise as they are emotionally charged. Open a newspaper and you can find the word used to describe Jacques Chirac, Trent Lott, the Mullah Omar and Vladimir Putin. Since time immemorial, conservatives have insisted that their deeply pragmatic creed cannot be ideologically pigeonholed. > > But, in philosophical terms at least, classical conservatism does mean something. The creed of Edmund Burke, its most eloquent proponent, might be crudely reduced to six principles: **a deep suspicion of the power of the state; a preference for liberty over equality; patriotism; a belief in established institutions and hierarchies; skepticism about the idea of progress; and elitism.** Winston Churchill happily accepted these principles: he was devoted to nation and empire, disinclined to trust the lower orders with anything, hostile to the welfare state, worried about the diminution of liberty and, as he once remarked ruefully, “preferred the past to the present and the present to the future.” > > To simplify a little, the exceptionalism of modern American conservatism lies in its **exaggeration of the first three of Burke’s principles and contradiction of the last three.** The American Right exhibits a far deeper hostility towards the state than any other modern conservative party. . . . The American right is also more obsessed with personal liberty than any other conservative party, and prepared to tolerate an infinitely higher level of inequality. (One reason why Burke warmed to the American revolutionaries was that, unlike their dangerous French equivalents, the gentlemen rebels concentrated on freedom, not equality.) On patriotism, nobody can deny that conservatives everywhere tend to be a fairly nationalistic bunch. . . . Yet many European conservatives have accepted the idea that their nationality should be diluted in “schemes and speculations” like the European Union, and they are increasingly reconciled to dealing with national security on a multilateral basis. American conservatives clearly are not. > > If the American Right was merely a more vigorous form of conservatism, then it would be a lot more predictable. In fact, the American Right takes a resolutely liberal approach to Burke’s last three principles: hierarchy, pessimism and elitism. The heroes of modern American conservatism are not paternalist squires but rugged individualists who don’t know their place: entrepeneurs who build mighty businesses out of nothing, settlers who move out West, and, of course, the cowboy. There is a frontier spirit to the Right – unsurprisingly, since so much of its heartland is made up of new towns of one sort of another. > > The geography of conservatism also helps to explain its optimism rather than pessimism. In the war between the Dynamo and the Virgin, as Henry Adams characterized the battle between progress and tradition, most American conservatives are on the side of the Dynamo. They think that the world offers all sorts of wonderful possibilities. And they feel that the only thing that is preventing people from attaining these possibilities is the dead liberal hand of the past. By contrast, Burke has been described flatteringly by European conservatives as a “prophet of the past.” Spend any time with a group of Republicans, and their enthusiasm for the future can be positively exhausting. > > As for elitism, rather than dreaming about creating an educated “clerisy” of clever rulers (as Coleridge and T.S. Eliot did), the Republicans ever since the 1960s have played the populist card. Richard Nixon saw himself as the champion of the “silent majority.” In 1988 the aristocratic George H.W. Bush presented himself as a defender of all-American values against the Harvard Yard liberalism of Michael Dukakis. In 2000, George W. Bush, a president’s son who was educated at Andover, Yale and Harvard Business School, played up his role as a down-to-earth Texan taking on the might of Washington. As a result, modern American conservatism has flourished not just in country clubs and boardrooms, but at the grass roots – on talk radio and at precinct meetings, and in revolts against high taxes, the regulation of firearms and other invidious attempts by liberal do-gooders to force honest Americans into some predetermined mold. Now, in **those** terms, **Paul,** do you still consider yourself a “conservative,” or do you think you (and your projected new party) require a different label? (For the life of me, I still can’t fathom what distinguishes your stated politics from big-L Libertarianism.) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/56 "2005-11-24T23:28:09Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > 1. Freedom from Government intrusion in the bedroom. We got that one in Canada when Trudeau was in power. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377/57 "2005-11-25T04:11:41Z")
I cry “uncle!” the assembled multitude has put me back in my place. I am a Libertarian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-a-conservative-party-discuss/332377.md?page=2)