# America needs to address its gun hypocrisy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795 "2021-11-23T06:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/361 "2022-09-22T19:28:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Do note that the newest Gun control act should put the brakes on many of the “Straw man dealers” who are the primary source for criminals getting guns. I hope it helps cut down that flow of guns into the hands of criminals. > [@DrDeth](#): > > But I think that part wasn’t strict enough. We need more regs and enforcement to stop these “Straw man dealers” . Agreed. I don’t really see anything that keeps someone from saying, “Oops, I guess they got stolen.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/362 "2022-09-22T20:40:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Agreed. I don’t really see anything that keeps someone from saying, “Oops, I guess they got stolen.” They don’t even have to do that. They just say “I sold them”. Until the new law, that was perfectly legal to do in most states, with no background checks, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/363 "2022-09-23T04:35:54Z")
It’s still legal to do in most states. You need to read what the new federal law actually says about private sales. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/364 "2022-09-23T13:00:49Z")
Huh, I mentioned as to how easy it is for criminals to get guns, and I am told that it’s even easier than that. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/365 "2022-09-23T22:34:52Z")
Bad guys are going to get guns it’s as basic as that. No matter what “this will make it harder for them” law you pass, at the end of the day anyone who wants to get a gun legal or not will get one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/366 "2022-09-23T23:03:44Z")
Sure. But according top some the cost of a 9mm is $500 in the USA, and in the UK it is $2000 and harder to get. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/367 "2022-09-23T23:05:14Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Least I post that “mass shootings” today by, so called “assault weapons”, still only account for 1-3% of all firearm related murders. I’ve looked for stats on that and couldn’t find any. With the murder clearance rate in Philadelphia at little more than a third, I wonder if it is even possible to do reliable research on the question. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/368 "2022-09-23T23:07:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. But according top some the cost of a 9mm is $500 in the USA, and in the UK it is $2000 and harder to get. And probably even more expensive in Antarctica. I’m going to keep my conversation based in the USA where I know how things work on this topic. And, like I said, harder to get does not mean impossible. In the end a criminal in America is going to get a gun if he wants one. As grim of an awful truth that is, it is still the truth. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/369 "2022-09-23T23:19:21Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Bad guys are going to get guns it’s as basic as that. No matter what “this will make it harder for them” law you pass, at the end of the day anyone who wants to get a gun legal or not will get one. Most U.S. gun deaths are suicide. If you have to wait a few weeks, life will possibly, even probably, feel different. And lots of murders are also impulsive. In almost every country, you can get a gun if you go through a time-consuming process. Killers are mostly the impatient type. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/370 "2022-09-23T23:27:10Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Bad guys are going to get guns it’s as basic as that. No matter what “this will make it harder for them” law you pass, at the end of the day anyone who wants to get a gun legal or not will get one. > > In almost every country, you can get a gun if you go through a time-consuming process. Yeah, kicking in the backdoor when nobody is home and stealing a gun in a burglary. Or buying a gun on the street from someone else who did that. All real time consuming. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/371 "2022-09-23T23:51:46Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Yeah, kicking in the backdoor when nobody is home and stealing a gun in a burglary. If only there was something, anything, that gun owners could do that would make that harder . . . but alas, there’s nothing even vaguely possible to make it even the tiniest bit harder. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/372 "2022-09-24T01:38:47Z")
Harder? Of course. Impossible? Nope. Hell, guns get stolen out of police squad cars occasionally and the security mechanisms on them is top notch, And blaming the victim of a gun theft like you love to do in other threads isn’t going to do anything either. Some of you live in a majikal dream land where some law is going to eliminate or greatly reduce gun crime. Ain’t gonna happen folks. Not in America. For over 100 years every gun control law was supposed to do just that. Didn’t happen, isn’t going to happen. But yet you always grasp onto the next law that you insist will. Vicious circle. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/373 "2022-09-24T01:43:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And blaming the victim of a gun theft like you love to do in other threads One would hope this is the third person “you” or else I might be tempted to ask for evidence that I’ve done this. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/374 "2022-09-24T02:15:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Do note that the newest Gun control act should put the brakes on many of the “Straw man dealers” who are the primary source for criminals getting guns. But I think that part wasn’t strict enough. We need more regs and enforcement to stop these “Straw man dealers” . Straw man buyers are a constant problem, but are there really that many “straw man dealers”? As in wink wink nudge nudge sure you buy twenty identical handguns for your “collection”? Or are you simply saying that a dealer who failed to catch or prevent a straw buyer is ipso facto guilty of negligence? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/375 "2022-09-24T02:54:41Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Most U.S. gun deaths are suicide. If you have to wait a few weeks, life will possibly, even probably, feel different. How many of those suicides were committed with recently purchased firearms? How many homicides were made with recently purchased firearms? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/376 "2022-09-24T02:58:10Z")
And as has been pointed out _ad nauseum_, the Japanese don’t seem to have any trouble maintaining a higher suicide rate than the USA despite a virtually total absence of guns. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/377 "2022-09-24T06:40:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Straw man buyers are a constant problem, but are there really that many “straw man dealers”? As in wink wink nudge nudge sure you buy twenty identical handguns for your “collection”? Or are you simply saying that a dealer who failed to catch or prevent a straw buyer is ipso facto guilty of negligence? You don’t need straw man dealers in all of the states that allow private sales with no checks, aka “gun show loophole”. I can find a gun for sale in a local rag, hand the seller cash and walk out with a gun and no one the wiser. Super easy. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/378 "2022-09-24T10:04:12Z")
A licensed dealer can sell a gun without doing a background check. Just move it from inventory into his private collection and note it in the acquisition and disposition record (bound book). No other paperwork or background check on himself is required. He does have to wait one year after doing this but then, voila. He can sell it as a private sale, no ID or Brady is required. And seeing with his license he can purchase wholesale unlike unlicensed dealers, he can make a tidy sum doing this. This is one way unethical dealers are selling off the books. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/379 "2022-09-24T11:20:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And as has been pointed out _ad nauseum_, the Japanese don’t seem to have any trouble maintaining a higher suicide rate than the USA despite a virtually total absence of guns. According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#Latest), the latest sucide rate in the U.S.is 14.5 per 100,000, while that in Japan is 12.2 per 100,000. There are plenty of past years one could pick when the relationship went the other way, but if by some chance Japan-U.S. pairing is needed to justify the U.S. gun culture, the pro-gun side IS in a bit of trouble. Since immediate gun availability is obviously not the only suicide risk factor, I suppose they can get out of said trouble by cherry-picking some other low gun ownership/high gun ownership country pair and year. South Korea is having a terrible suicide rate spurt lately. In deciding whether it is a safety plus to have the lethal tool in question in your home, this kind of evidence seems to me consistent: [Handgun ownership [in California] associated with much higher suicide risk](https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/380 "2022-09-24T13:00:38Z")
People are going to die in car accidents, it’s as basic as that. No matter what “traffic laws” you pass, at the end of the day, anyone who drives recklessly is a danger to themselves and others. People are going to kill each other, it’s as basic as that. No matter what “murder laws”, you pass, at the end of the day, anyone who wants to can end someone else’s life. I mean, you are literally arguing against the existence of laws here. I’d think it an odd position to take for someone who makes a living off of enforcing those laws. The streets are awash with guns, sold by straw dealers, by unethical gun dealers, and stolen from poorly secured homes. No one is saying that we can get rid of _all_ the guns in the hands of criminals or the negligent, but it _could_ be reduced, if it were not for the great efforts that those who want more guns in the hands of criminals and the negligent to fight against any form of mitigation. > [@pkbites](#): > > And, like I said, harder to get does not mean impossible. In the end a criminal in America is going to get a gun if he wants one. As grim of an awful truth that is, it is still the truth. Do you understand how economics works, even in the most basic sense? If you raise the price for a product, do you think that the number of that product in circulation goes up, down, or stays the same? At the end of the day, if I _really_ want to go to the SuperBowl, I can find a way, there is a ticket out there for me if I am willing to pay enough for it. Does that mean that anyone what wants to go to the SuperBowl can? No, there are a limited number of tickets available. These premises work on guns just as they do on SuperBowl tickets, reduce the supply, and you reduce the number people have access to. It’s really not that complicated to anyone who isn’t invested in _not_ understanding it. > [@pkbites](#): > > Yeah, kicking in the backdoor when nobody is home and stealing a gun in a burglary. Or buying a gun on the street from someone else who did that. All real time consuming. Well, yeah, it actually is. There is a reason that most people go to the supermarket to buy food, rather than kick in their neighbor’s door and steal theirs. But, you _do_ raise a good point about how poorly secured many guns are, how easy they are to steal or for them to fall into the hands of small children. Too bad there are people out there who want to see more small children killed in accidents and so they fight tooth and nail against any measures to prevent that. > [@pkbites](#): > > Harder? Of course. Impossible? Nope. Hell, guns get stolen out of police squad cars occasionally and the security mechanisms on them is top notch, Do you see any difference in the number of guns in the hands of criminals if the only source for them is to steal them out of police cars, or do you somehow think that there would be no difference? If you do recognize this, then you would also recognize that requiring people to do due diligence in securing their guns in their homes, vehicles and on their person would reduce the number in the hands of criminals as well. > [@pkbites](#): > > And blaming the victim of a gun theft like you love to do in other threads isn’t going to do anything either. Cite? > [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you live in a majikal dream land where some law is going to eliminate or greatly reduce gun crime. No, some of us live optimistically in the belief that we would ever be allowed to pass a law that would significantly reduce gun crime. Unfortunately, there are too many people out there who love to see guns in the hands of criminals and children killed in accidents to get any such laws passed. > [@pkbites](#): > > Ain’t gonna happen folks. Not in America. I guess we are just a country of criminals, where law abiding gun owners will simply break any laws that they don’t agree with. > [@pkbites](#): > > For over 100 years every gun control law was supposed to do just that. Didn’t happen, isn’t going to happen. For 100 years, gun laws have been peeled back and repealed by those motivated to see more children shot dead. Any laws that are passed are watered down and defanged by those who want more guns in the hands of criminals. Any proposed laws are blocked by those who desire more gun crime. > [@pkbites](#): > > But yet you always grasp onto the next law that you insist will. Vicious circle. Yes, it is a vicious circle, where people are predictably injured and killed by gun violence, and those motivated by their desire to see more gun violence make all sorts of fallacious claims and arguments to frustrate the efforts of those who are motivated to see _less_ gun violence. > [@Odesio](#): > > How many of those suicides were committed with recently purchased firearms? How many homicides were made with recently purchased firearms? That would definitely be interesting information to be had. Unfortunately, there is no one who has compiled that information. Would that be the sort of study that you would want the CDC to commission? Anecdotally, of the two people I know of that committed suicide by gun, one of them bought it a couple weeks beforehand. The other one already owned quite a number of guns, which he used to murder his wife and child before turning the gun on himself. > [@Lumpy](#): > > And as has been pointed out _ad nauseum_, the Japanese don’t seem to have any trouble maintaining a higher suicide rate than the USA despite a virtually total absence of guns. It is to the point of ad nauseum the number of times it has been pointed out that Japan has a different culture, where suicide has historically been an honorable act, one that gains the respect of family and community. Suicide in the US is considered to be selfish, and leaves friends and family ashamed of the victim. It is also pointed out ad nauseum that guns are far more effective suicide tools. They are more available, easier to use, and much more likely to succeed than any other method of suicide, leaving people who are in a momentary low point of depression an easy way to give in to an impulse. Most people, by the time they finish tying the hangman’s noose into the rafters, or make it to the bridge or building they have ideated as their method of suicide, have second thoughts, and don’t carry through with it. > [@pkbites](#): > > A licensed dealer can sell a gun without doing a background check. Just move it from inventory into his private collection and note it in the acquisition and disposition record (bound book). No other paperwork or background check on himself is required. Good point that criminals are also getting their guns directly from unethical gun dealers. It’s the kind of loophole that those who either profit from the practice, or simply want to see more victims of gun violence, fight to keep open. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795.md?page=20)