# America needs to address its gun hypocrisy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795 "2021-11-23T06:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/141 "2021-11-28T22:56:57Z")
Why? I mean if there are no kids in the house, why does a gun owner have to check his gun every day to see if it is still here? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/142 "2021-11-28T22:58:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Claims like this are exactly why such a conversation never goes anywhere. You claim to know the nefarious motives behind proposals, and use that mind reading ability to dismiss them out of hand. > > Maybe stop imputing false motives to people, and a productive conversation could be had. Well, Ok, I don’t know the actual motives. But I know the results- banning guns for law abiding gun owners, with nothing done for guns in the hands of criminals. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/143 "2021-11-28T22:58:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > You’re not responding to what I actually posted. > > > > I didn’t speak of unsecured or inadequately secured weapons. > > You spoke of weapons that you claimed to leave unsupervised for months at a time. > > That’s pretty unsecure to me. > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > I own a cabin in northern Wisconsin. I keep hunting rifles and shotguns there, unloaded, secured in a safe. The dwelling also has high quality locks, cameras, and a security system. But nothing is perfectly secure no matter what. > > Well, now you change it up a bit > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Call it what it fucking is: It’s another attempt to make lawfully owning firearms as miserable as possible. > > Why call it that when that is not what it is? It is an attempt at finding a way of reducing the death and injury associated with guns in our society. Your constant need to impugn motives to those who actually care about life and limb is pretty frustrating. I didn’t change anything. I clearly stated they were in a safe in my previous post. Of course the motives of others has to be impugned. Equating someone like me who has his unloaded arms secured in a safe in a secure dwelling to some schmuck that keeps a loaded weapon under his pillow for his children or thieves to get is insulting to me and arrogant of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/144 "2021-11-28T22:59:19Z")
Why? Explain. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/145 "2021-11-28T23:06:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If someone can break in and take your guns without you knowing, you are NOT a responsible gun owner. So if someone owns 1 gun, keeps it unloaded in a quality locked safe, your saying they are required to also have a security system, alarms, cameras, dogs, etc to make sure that safe isn’t stolen while they are away at work? And if it is stolen while they are away at work you would have them prosecuted because how dare they own a gun in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/146 "2021-11-28T23:07:54Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So if someone owns 1 gun, keeps it unloaded in a quality locked safe, your saying they are required to also have a security system, alarms, cameras, dogs, etc to make sure that safe isn’t stolen while they are away at work? We were talking about the cabin you are away from for 6 months at a time. If your job takes you away from home for months at a time, yes, you should have a security system that alerts you if your gun is stolen while away. If not, then that was a pretty disingenuous case of goal post shifting. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/147 "2021-11-28T23:23:31Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And if it is stolen while they are away at work you would have them prosecuted because how dare they own a gun in the first place. I thought that this part of the thread, regarding the obligation of gun owners to keep their guns secure, arose out of a discussion of “gun owner insurance”. If so, my understanding of the proposal isn’t to make gun owners criminally liable if their gun is stolen and used to harm somebody. Rather, they’d be civilly liable - that is, they could be sued for the damages their gun inflicts. This isn’t a suggestion to prosecute the gun owner. Obviously, the person who unlawfully used the weapon is subject to criminal penalty. Rather, the proposal is to allow the victims to also be able to sue the gun owner who allowed the gun to be used. Thus, gun insurance. In the same way that an insurance company will represent you if you are in a car accident, in this case the insurance company would represent you if somebody seeks to hold you financially responsible for the impact your gun may have had. As I see it, under such circumstances, keeping your gun in a safe or other secure location is akin to being a safe driver who was not at fault when somebody crashed into you - your insurance company would not find you to be at fault and would defend against any claim. Conversely, if you simply left your handgun on the seat of your convertible, your insurance company may pay out a settlement and then Jack up your rates. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/148 "2021-11-28T23:29:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > So if someone owns 1 gun, keeps it unloaded in a quality locked safe, your saying they are required to also have a security system, alarms, cameras, dogs, etc to make sure that safe isn’t stolen while they are away at work? > > We were talking about the cabin you are away from for 6 months at a time. If your job takes you away from home for months at a time, yes, you should have a security system that alerts you if your gun is stolen while away. If not, then that was a pretty disingenuous case of goal post shifting. You are aware that no system is 100% and there are professional burglars that are able to circumvent many systems and safes. They tend to hit a community several times then move on to another area. Would you punish a gun owner that was victimized by such a thief? If my security system gets hacked and I get no notice of intrusion, would you have me prosecuted. And for what specific crime? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/149 "2021-11-28T23:37:06Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Would you punish a gun owner that was victimized by such a thief? If my security system gets hacked and I get no notice of intrusion, would you have me prosecuted. And for what specific crime? There is no crime. There is no mens rea. But a law could be passed providing a cause of action to sue for civil liability. If that happens, being a victim of theft or having your security system hacked would clearly mitigate against any liability. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/150 "2021-11-28T23:40:44Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You are aware that no system is 100% and there are professional burglars that are able to circumvent many systems and safes. They tend to hit a community several times then move on to another area. “Nothing is 100% safe therefore we shouldn’t take any steps to protect our guns at all” isn’t a very reasonable position. > [@pkbites](#): > > Would you punish a gun owner that was victimized by such a thief? I would punish a homeowner with no fence around his pool when the neighborhood kid falls in and drowns. I would not punish a homeowner with a sufficiently high fence if the local pole vaulting champion leaps over his fence and drowns. Same logic here. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/151 "2021-11-28T23:41:15Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Would you punish a gun owner that was victimized by such a thief? If my security system gets hacked and I get no notice of intrusion, would you have me prosecuted. And for what specific crime? > > There is no crime. There is no mens rea. No, **Babale** posted about prosecuting such a person. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/152 "2021-11-28T23:43:11Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > > [@Moriarty](#): > > > > There is no crime. There is no mens rea. > > No, **Babale** posted about prosecuting such a person Depending on the severity of the violation, it could be criminal or civil. > **[Criminal Negligence – Defintion, Application & Defenses](https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/criminal-negligence/)** > > Criminal negligence refers to conduct in which a person ignores a known or obvious risk, or disregards the life and safety of others. Federal and state courts describe this behavior as a form of recklessness, where the person acts significantly... ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/153 "2021-11-28T23:45:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “Nothing is 100% safe therefore we shouldn’t take any steps to protect our guns at all” isn’t a very reasonable position. What is not reasonable are your previous assertions that a gun owner be prosecuted if their gun is stolen even if it was secured in a safe. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/154 "2021-11-28T23:50:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Depending on the severity of the violation, it could be criminal or civil. Yeah, but you guys are talking past each other. Criminally negligent conduct is plainly different than having a home that is broken into, or a security system that is hacked. I simply do not agree that a person would be considered criminally negligent, or even civilly liable, if their nominally secure cabin in the woods was raided while they were away. Even if they didn’t check the cabin for a few months - that’s not unreasonable behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/155 "2021-11-28T23:53:23Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > What is not reasonable are your previous assertions that a gun owner be prosecuted if their gun is stolen even if it was secured in a safe I assume you aren’t intentionally misrepresenting what I said but that you just forgot instead, so here’s a reminder. I said a gun owner should be prosecuted if their gun is stolen and used in a crime from a safe **located in a cabin they hadn’t been to in 6 months whose status they are completely blind to**. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/156 "2021-11-28T23:54:07Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Even if they didn’t check the cabin for a few months - that’s not unreasonable behavior. Being unaware of the status of your deadly weapon for months at a time is entirely unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/157 "2021-11-28T23:54:57Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Depending on the severity of the violation, it could be criminal or civil. > > Yeah, but you guys are talking past each other. Criminally negligent conduct is plainly different than having a home that is broken into, or a security system that is hacked. I simply do not agree that a person would be considered criminally negligent, or even civilly liable, if their nominally secure cabin in the woods was raided while they were away. Even if they didn’t check the cabin for a few months - that’s not unreasonable behavior. Their own cite includes talk of taking reasonable care. Securing a weapon in a safe is certainly taking reasonable care. No need to be checking on it every other day. That’s why people have safes. So they can secure things in it and not worry about it. But **Babale** does not like people owning guns, legally or otherwise. So nothing they post here about this issue is going to be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/158 "2021-11-28T23:58:24Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > But **Babale** does not like people owning guns, legally or otherwise. So nothing they post here about this issue is going to be reasonable. 🙄😏😒 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/159 "2021-11-29T00:00:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Moriarty](#): > > > > Even if they didn’t check the cabin for a few months - that’s not unreasonable behavior. > > Being unaware of the status of your deadly weapon for months at a time is entirely unreasonable. Tens of thousands of folks own second homes and cabins up north. Most of them leave firearms in them for months at a time. And they do know their status: secured in a strong box or safe. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795/160 "2021-11-29T00:07:43Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Tens of thousands of folks own second homes and cabins up north. Most of them leave firearms in them for months at a time. Yes, that’s the current situation. The current situation is also that there are millions of illegal firearms in the US and way, way more gun deaths than other developed nations. > [@](#): > > And they do know their status: secured in a strong box or safe Until they get to their cabin and learn they were wrong for the last 6 months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-needs-to-address-its-gun-hypocrisy/954795.md?page=9)