# America or Western Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120 "2011-08-18T05:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/81 "2011-08-21T18:39:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t see it, **Joel**. Those stats do show a downwards trend starting around the late 90s/early 00s. The problem with your theory is that American incarceration rates started booming upwards [in the late 70s/early 80s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png) (Yes, it’s a wiki graph, but it was made using the same source as your stats). Which, incidentally, is also when privatized prisons got in on the action. > Now, if your theory that putting people behind bars stopped them from acting criminally was correct, then the trend should have immediately followed the increased incarcerations, wouldn’t it ? How would you handwave away that decade of lag between cause and effect ? > > Not to mention, the grand majority of people in US jails today are there on drug charges, not violent crimes, assault, burglaries or whatnot (Wikipedia has it at 60%). I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen anyone on weed hitting anything besides the bong. The three strikes laws didn’t started getting enacted in 1993. I recall some stories about having to early release some inmates to make room for 3 strike convictions. Your 60% number is totally wrong. Wikipedia said that 60% are in prison for **violent** crimes. Wikipedia stated that 20% are in state prisons for drug crimes and that the percentage in Federal prisons is higher. The tendency to actually put people in jail for simple possession has decreased over time, as we have found better uses for our prison cells. The people I’ve known that convicted just got probation. Some states have actually decriminalized simple possession for marijuana. It occurred to me that there might be a way to compare the prison incarceration rates in different in different counties by normalizing to the size of the criminal population. I figure if I compare the rates of people on probation to those in prison or jail that might be a useful comparison. The pro/p+j ratio the U.S. peaked at 2.7 in 1985 and has gradually decreased to 1.8, which it has been holding at for the last three years. That indicates that the U.S has become more likely to incarcerate criminals, but it hasn’t been a massive increase. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/82 "2011-08-21T19:00:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Apparently you missed the part in your own link pointing out that the UK has a higher average prison population than Europe as a whole. Yes I did see that. Is it you position that putting more people in prison **causes** a fear of crime? If you read what I posted later, so will will see where I pointed out that calling a prison population too high is absurd. The question is whether the prisons are sized to their criminal population. Low crime countries should need a lot less prison cells than high crime counties. It is unfortunate that England, that used to have reputation as a safe country to live in, has started to look more and more like **A Clockwork Orange** was a documentary rather than a SF novel. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/83 "2011-08-21T19:10:47Z")
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html) ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/84 "2011-08-21T21:03:19Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > No one said it doesn’t exist at all; I’m disputing the (oft made) claims that most prostitution involves slavery, and that this is an even bigger problem in countries with legal prostitution. > > I see sensationalist book written by a journalist and and raise you a thoughtful, well-researched one written by a respected academic, [Sex at the Margins by Laura Agustín](http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Margins-Migration-Markets-Industry/dp/1842778609/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1313912120&sr=1-1) So my book offering is sensationalist, because the issues it raises makes you uncomfortable, is that it? To be fair, I haven’t read Professor Agustin’s book, so I’ll withhold comment. I hope you have read Mr. Skinner’s book before passing such judgement on it as you did. It certainly didn’t strike me as sensationalist, especially since he criticizes certain so-called rescue operations for focussing on the sex-trafficking trade, instead of other places where slavery exists. My point is legal prostitution is no basis for judging the amount of freedom one has in a certain country. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/85 "2011-08-21T23:10:50Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > No disrespect but you did come to the U.S. as a foreign person from another country which is sure to raise some red flags in these days of terrorist bliss :). But we don’t do that to you. If you come to the UK, our government won’t take your fingerprints upon entry. As for “foreign tourist visiting the US raises a red flag” - I doubt that very much. It is, and has always been, extraordinarily common behaviour. Millions do it every year (and vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/86 "2011-08-21T23:12:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But none of this actually supports your ridiculous claim that people in England are afraid to leave their homes. Nope, he knows better. We’re afraid to leave our homes. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/87 "2011-08-22T04:35:48Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > But we don’t do that to you. If you come to the UK, our government won’t take your fingerprints upon entry. > > As for “foreign tourist visiting the US raises a red flag” - I doubt that very much. It is, and has always been, extraordinarily common behaviour. Millions do it every year (and vice versa). I found this claim to be questionable, so I Googled “UK tourist visa fingerprint” and the first result was: > [@](#): > > **To protect the UK’s borders and to prevent identity theft, we require every UK Border Agency visa applicant to provide (enrol) their fingerprints by having them scanned**, and to have a digital photograph taken when they make a visa application. This process is known as collecting biometric information. > > All UK Border Agency visa applicants are required to provide biometric information as part of the visa application process every time they apply for a visa, unless they are exempt. (If you are a regular traveller to the UK, we therefore recommend that you consider applying for a longer-term visa.) **If you refuse to provide your biometrics, your visa will not be processed.** [http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/biometricvisa/](http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/biometricvisa/) :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/88 "2011-08-22T07:39:40Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Nope, he knows better. We’re afraid to leave our homes. :rolleyes: I’m with you on this one **candyman74** - it’s insane that we’re being educated about our country by someone else situated in a different country via a right-leaning newspaper from our own. I really should be going to work but I’m afraid to leave my home. :rolleyes: indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/89 "2011-08-22T10:24:55Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > The 20ish% number is accurate for the overall prison population incarcerated for drug offenses. The number for the federal prisoners is misleading, since federal prisoners make up a very small percentage of the total prison population, and federal prisoners are there for only a certain subset of crimes. They do ? I thought it was the other way 'round. All right then, point retracted - I was fixated on that 60% fed number. > [@](#): > > That pertains to \*arrests \*and has nothing to do with convicted _prisoners_. Grmbl. As I said, I was in a rush. Point retracted too. I wouldn’t think our slaps on the wrists count as arrests though - I admit I’m not sure how policemen make their stats, but I would assume one would have to put someone under arrest and at least bring them to the station to be allowed to put a little dot in the “arrests” column. The fine might, since there’s a paper trace. Else beat cops would be coming back to the station claiming they made eleventy billion arrests and you can write that down, sir ! Only there’s no names and no proof whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/90 "2011-08-22T12:04:46Z")
[Pertinent to the American crime angle that we’re discussing](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/21/america-serious-crime-rate-plunging) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/91 "2011-08-22T14:01:27Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is unfortunate that England, that used to have reputation as a safe country to live in, has started to look more and more like **A Clockwork Orange** was a documentary rather than a SF novel. This is shit. _checks forum rules_ Nah, this is just witless shit. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/92 "2011-08-22T14:20:54Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > I found this claim to be questionable, so I Googled “UK tourist visa fingerprint” and the first result was: > [http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/biometricvisa/](http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/biometricvisa/) > :dubious: Fair enough! Though I’d mention that no visas are involved here - the US and most of Western Europe is part of the visa waiver program. That refers to the visa application process (which doesn’t apply to you or me), not to point-of-entry data collection. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/93 "2011-08-22T14:22:01Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I’m with you on this one **candyman74** - it’s insane that we’re being educated about our country by someone else situated in a different country via a right-leaning newspaper from our own. > > I really should be going to work but I’m afraid to leave my home. :rolleyes: indeed. I know! I woke up this morning and was going to go to work as usual. But then I remembered some guy on the intrawebs had told me I was afraid to leave my own home. I don’t know what to do now! ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/94 "2011-08-22T15:10:09Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I know! I woke up this morning and was going to go to work as usual. But then I remembered some guy on the intrawebs had told me I was afraid to leave my own home. I don’t know what to do now! He’s referring to England, apparently. I know I’m afraid to leave the safety of Scotland. Any time I get to Gretna Green, the distant sound of rioting, gunfire and general anarchy terrifies me. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/95 "2011-08-22T15:55:41Z")
You Euros are clearly living in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/96 "2011-08-22T16:04:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Yes I did see that. Is it you position that putting more people in prison **causes** a fear of crime? No. It is _your_ position that people in England “are afraid to leave their homes” because the UK doesn’t imprison enough people. Your citation essentially disproves an essential assumption of your theory - that the UK doesn’t put people in prison. It does, and at a higher rate than the rest of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/97 "2011-08-22T19:09:36Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > [Pertinent to the American crime angle that we’re discussing](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/21/america-serious-crime-rate-plunging) An interesting article, but I suspect most of the theories wouldn’t withstand a through analysis. I thought that John Roman was particularly asinine. I tracked down the James Q Wilson article and it looks like the Guardian cribbed a lot from it. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/98 "2011-08-22T19:23:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. It is _your_ position that people in England “are afraid to leave their homes” because the UK doesn’t imprison enough people. > > Your citation essentially disproves an essential assumption of your theory - that the UK doesn’t put people in prison. It does, and at a higher rate than the rest of Europe. The question is whether they put **enough** people in prison. If you have weak social norms, you are going have more habitual offenders that need to isolated from the general public. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/99 "2011-08-22T19:35:53Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > This is shit. _checks forum rules_ Nah, this is just witless shit. I am totally devastated by the force of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/100 "2011-08-22T20:09:56Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I’m with you on this one **candyman74** - it’s insane that we’re being educated about our country by someone else situated in a different country via a right-leaning newspaper from our own. > > I really should be going to work but I’m afraid to leave my home. :rolleyes: indeed. A right-leaning newspaper quoting a survey by the **Home Office**. If you think the survey is wrong, then perhaps you address that, instead of making ad hominem attacks on the messenger. BTW, here is an article in the Guardian, if you prefer: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html) The web site sounds pretty cool. It lets you actually lets you check the crime rate for your neighborhood. 18 million hits per hour sounds excessive though. Are people checking it like weather report? Warm and cloudy with scattered muggings? I do think that whoever coined the term “responsibilisation” should be indicted for crimes against the English language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120.md?page=6)