# America or Western Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120 "2011-08-18T05:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/101 "2011-08-22T21:05:10Z")
As noted earlier, “arrests” for weed does not translate into necessarily going to jail. Moreover you mention that in Europe people don’t generally go to jail for simple possession. The same is true in the US. Most of the people in jail on drug charges are dealers charged “possession with intent to sell” not simple possession. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I can’t find it any more now, and I’m in a rush. This will have to do for the moment: > > Will get back to it later if I remember. > > Yes, but here in France usually not for simple possession AFAIK, unless it’s an aggravating charge for another crime. \*\*Clairobscur \*\*might know more about this than I do. > > As for weed, well, in my crazy youth I’ve had maybe half a dozen brushes with the police where I was either holding weed, or was intoxicated and in the company of people holding weed. All they ever did was search, seizure, and “piss off, kid”. Never saw the inside of a PD cell, nevermind a courthouse & jail. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/102 "2011-08-22T21:10:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > A right-leaning newspaper quoting a survey by the **Home Office**. If you think the survey is wrong, then perhaps you address that, instead of making ad hominem attacks on the messenger. > > BTW, here is an article in the Guardian, if you prefer: > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4108957/One-in-ten-people-fear-being-a-victim-of-crime-every-day.html) Same website - but I’m willing to bet the narrative of the story of the Guardian article was “ZOMG!!! CRIME EVERYWHERE, HIDE IN YOUR HOUSES!” which you can be rest assured the Telegraph will play if they can. Also, a simple bit of maths - 10% of people fear being a victim of crime (the definition of this category they don’t include - does it include sitting on the bus wondering idly if you could possibly get mugged because it’s night time?), which means that _90% of people don’t_. The vast, overwhelming majority of our society aren’t afraid of being victims of crime, myself included. How is that a clockwork orange writ large across our society? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/103 "2011-08-22T21:28:53Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I am totally devastated by the force of your argument. Keep calm and carry on posting links from the Telegraph. I’d check out the Daily Mail if I were you, it’s just the right sort of thing you’d like. Perhaps the Daily Express? Right up your alley, and just right for your, ah, “perspective” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/104 "2011-08-22T21:38:25Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > The vast, overwhelming majority of our society aren’t afraid of being victims of crime, myself included. How is that a clockwork orange writ large across our society? Joel is a simple coward. Believes any kind of shite he is spoon fed by morons, for morons. A shame. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/105 "2011-08-22T22:15:52Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Same website - but I’m willing to bet the narrative of the story of the Guardian article was “ZOMG!!! CRIME EVERYWHERE, HIDE IN YOUR HOUSES!” which you can be rest assured the Telegraph will play if they can. Also, a simple bit of maths - 10% of people fear being a victim of crime (the definition of this category they don’t include - does it include sitting on the bus wondering idly if you could possibly get mugged because it’s night time?), which means that _90% of people don’t_. The vast, overwhelming majority of our society aren’t afraid of being victims of crime, myself included. How is that a clockwork orange writ large across our society? [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/02/crime-maps-policing-home-office](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/02/crime-maps-policing-home-office) Sorry. Cut and paste from the wrong tab. I really think you should address the Home Office study instead of beating a straw man. I’m sure there are some definitions in there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/106 "2011-08-22T23:22:29Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Joel is a simple coward. Believes any kind of shite he is spoon fed by morons, for morons. A shame. ☹ Since you just checked the forum rules, you should no better than this. I’m giving you a warning for personal insults. Next time you have to post something like this, do it in The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/107 "2011-08-22T23:28:31Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Keep calm and carry on posting links from the Telegraph. I’d check out the Daily Mail if I were you, it’s just the right sort of thing you’d like. Perhaps the Daily Express? Right up your alley, and just right for your, ah, “perspective” I don’t read any British newspaper unless another article references them. Ditto for American papers except for the NY Times, which I read every day. I don’t watch any TV or cable news either, except secondhand from watching the Daily Show. I’m not really up on the fine points of the political orientation of the various newspapers. Most of impression of English crime comes from the essays and books of Theodore Dalrymple. I’ll read almost anything he writes since I consider him one of the finest essay writers living today. Since he just retired as a prison Psychiatrist, I would think he is more authoritative on this topic than most people in England on this topic. There is actually a web site devoted to him and contains links to most of his work available online. [http://blog.skepticaldoctor.com/2011/08/16/sloppy-riot-thinking.aspx?ref=rss](http://blog.skepticaldoctor.com/2011/08/16/sloppy-riot-thinking.aspx?ref=rss) The clockwork orange comment is actually based on his essay on the novel. BTW his most recent book is: **LITTER: HOW OTHER PEOPLE’S RUBBISH SHAPES OUR LIVES** isn’t very complementary of the English either. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/108 "2011-08-22T23:48:27Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Most of impression of English crime comes from the essays and books of Theodore Dalrymple. I’ll read almost anything he writes since I consider him one of the finest essay writers living today. Ah. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/109 "2011-08-23T06:41:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I don’t read any British newspaper unless another article references them. […] > > Most of impression of English crime comes from the essays and books of Theodore Dalrymple. I’ll read almost anything he writes since I consider him one of the finest essay writers living today. So… your opinion of the UK is based on one writer only? Sounds really balanced. I’m thinking of basing my opinion of the US only on Glenn Beck’s rantings. Or only on Michael Moore’s movies. Good idea, eh? Or, what **Baron Greenback** said. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/110 "2011-08-23T14:16:07Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > So… your opinion of the UK is based on one writer only? Sounds really balanced. I’m thinking of basing my opinion of the US only on Glenn Beck’s rantings. Or only on Michael Moore’s movies. Good idea, eh? > > Or, what **Baron Greenback** said. Okay, if you don’t accept that an English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English crime, then perhaps you should show what you are basing your opinion on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/111 "2011-08-23T14:28:49Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The question is whether they put **enough** people in prison. If you have weak social norms, you are going have more habitual offenders that need to isolated from the general public. They put _more_ people in prison than other European countries. I strongly suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread and read your own posts and the responses again. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay, if you don’t accept that an English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English crime, then perhaps you should show what you are basing your opinion on. An English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English prisons and inmates. That’s not the same thing as crime. Anyway, Dalrymple/Daniels is a doddering old tit spouting the same pointless ramblings that doddering old tits have been offering up about “the youth” for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/112 "2011-08-23T16:30:07Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay, if you don’t accept that an English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English crime, then perhaps you should show what you are basing your opinion on. Just as you point to an English prison psychiatrist as likely being more reliable than most people in England, isn’t it also reasonable to say that lots of prison psychiatrists - or people otherwise with experience with the area - would be more reliable still? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/113 "2011-08-23T16:49:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay, if you don’t accept that an English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English crime, then perhaps you should show what you are basing your opinion on. The only reliable source as to whether I’m afraid to leave my home is me, I’m afraid. Not some prison psychiatrist. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/114 "2011-08-23T16:54:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Just as you point to an English prison psychiatrist as likely being more reliable than most people in England, isn’t it also reasonable to say that lots of prison psychiatrists - or people otherwise with experience with the area - would be more reliable still? You’re confusing this argument with logic! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/115 "2011-08-23T22:09:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Just as you point to an English prison psychiatrist as likely being more reliable than most people in England, isn’t it also reasonable to say that lots of prison psychiatrists - or people otherwise with experience with the area - would be more reliable still? Okay start bringing out your sources. So far, you have suggested there are better sources, but you haven’t actually mentioned any. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/116 "2011-08-23T22:19:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay start bringing out your sources. So far, you have suggested there are better sources, but you haven’t actually mentioned any. No, he made the pretty obvious point that more than just one source, no matter how authoritative you might think it, would be a better choice than ONLY one. Neither he nor any of the rest of us have to cite other sources when we’re willing to consider them, rather than doing what you are and clinging to a single one as gospel (or so it seems). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/117 "2011-08-23T22:32:23Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > The only reliable source as to whether I’m afraid to leave my home is me, I’m afraid. Not some prison psychiatrist. I accept your are the best authority for your own level of fear. That’s one down and 52,095,894 million people that haven’t spoken. Theodore Dalrymple wrote an interesting essay on the subject of authority. [http://www.newstatesman.com/199907050025.htm](http://www.newstatesman.com/199907050025.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/118 "2011-08-23T23:05:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They put _more_ people in prison than other European countries. I strongly suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread and read your own posts and the responses again. I’ve already addressed that issue. The number of people is prison is only relevant in relation to the actual criminal population. The crime rate in England suggests that either England needs to identify habitual offenders and give them long sentences or put more criminals away. I suspect the former would actually be more productive. > [@](#): > > An English prison psychiatrist is a reliable source for analysis of English prisons and inmates. That’s not the same thing as crime. I suspect he would be an excellent source for estimating how many of his patients are likely to reoffend when they are released. > [@](#): > > Anyway, Dalrymple/Daniels is a doddering old tit spouting the same pointless ramblings that doddering old tits have been offering up about “the youth” for centuries. Dalrymple is 61 years old. At exactly what age is a man considered to be doddering? In any case, the ad hominem attacks on Daniels seems to indicate a inability to address his arguements. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/119 "2011-08-23T23:11:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I accept your are the best authority for your own level of fear. That’s one down and 52,095,894 million people that haven’t spoken. > > Theodore Dalrymple wrote an interesting essay on the subject of authority. > > [http://www.newstatesman.com/199907050025.htm](http://www.newstatesman.com/199907050025.htm) Well, I can nominate everyone I know as people seemingly able to traverse the streets without fear or incident. So knock another hundred or do people off that list. Fortunately, your bizarre opinion of the streets of Britain (or, indeed, thus random psychologist) doesn’t magically make it real, so I’ll continue to wander my peaceful streets without fear of the imaginary anarchy. But, hey, feel free to continue to think that. Makes no difference to real life what you think, and if it makes you feel better more power to you. Just don’t come here - you’ll be very disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/120 "2011-08-23T23:24:02Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > No, he made the pretty obvious point that more than just one source, no matter how authoritative you might think it, would be a better choice than ONLY one. Neither he nor any of the rest of us have to cite other sources when we’re willing to consider them, rather than doing what you are and clinging to a single one as gospel (or so it seems). Interesting. This appears to be a variant of the _Appeal To Anonymous Authority_ fallacy. Daniels is only one man, so there must be multiple authorities that disprove what he says, even though I can’t be bothered to cite them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120.md?page=7)