# America or Western Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120 "2011-08-18T05:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/161 "2011-08-25T18:21:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > America does jail a hell of a lot more of its citizens than other countries. Ask those people how free we are? Most of them deserve to be there. Why should I care how free they feel? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/162 "2011-08-25T19:03:27Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Would a reasonable person conclude that I was talking about people that were drunk indoors or would they assume I was talking about people that were drunk outdoors? Are you trying to claim that a pub open to the general public isn’t a public place? [QUOTE=Merriam-Webster] 1pub·lic adj \ˈpə-blik\ Definition of PUBLIC 1 a : exposed to general view : open b : well-known, prominent c : perceptible, material 2 a : of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of a nation or state \ b : of or relating to a government c : of, relating to, or being in the service of the community or nation 3 a : of or relating to people in general : universal b : general, popular 4 : of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to private affairs : social 5 : devoted to the general or national welfare : humanitarian 6 a : accessible to or shared by all members of the community b : capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open market —often used with go 7 : supported by public funds and private contributions rather than by income from commercials \ \ [/QUOTE] I can’t see any qualifications on indoors vs. outdoors here ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/163 "2011-08-25T19:36:58Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Are you trying to claim that a pub open to the general public isn’t a public place? > > I can’t see any qualifications on indoors vs. outdoors here > [@](#): > > Definition of PUBLIC > 1 > a : exposed to general view : open Not only did you not bother to read my post you didn’t read you own. As I pointed out, A pub is called a Public House, because it run by a Publican, not because it is in public. In this context a Pub is not a Public place. Pubs are private property. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/164 "2011-08-25T19:55:46Z")
I actually found a sentence where they are clearing illustrating the a public house is not in public. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking\_in\_public#United\_Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_in_public#United_Kingdom) > [@](#): > > Drinking in **public** is generally legal and widely practised in the United Kingdom – one may carry a drink from a **public house** down the street, though it is preferred that one request a plastic glass to avoid danger of breakage, and one may purchase alcohol at an off-licence and immediately begin drinking it outside. Similarly, one may drink on aeroplanes and on National Rail trains, either purchasing alcohol or consuming one’s own. It is clear that they don’t consider being in a public house as being in public. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/165 "2011-08-25T23:57:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Would a reasonable person conclude that I was talking about people that were drunk indoors or would they assume I was talking about people that were drunk outdoors? You comment seems bizarre, since I wasn’t even asking about your personal behavior. A reasonable person would agree that a pub constitutes “in public”, yes. An unreasonable person would take that comment and decide it meant the writer was (and I paraphrase) a violent sociopath who beats up old ladies for complaining about the empty liquor bottles thrown into their back yard. > [@](#): > > A pub is called a Public House, because it run by a Publican, not because it is in public. This statement, like most of your statements in this thread, is untrue. Even the article you linked to indicates that the word “publican” only started being used to describe the pub landlord in Victorian times and that, indeed, the writing of Pepys, which preceded that by a couple of centuries, made reference to the “pub”. > **[Pub - Etymology, Origin & Meaning](https://www.etymonline.com/word/pub)** > > Originating in 1859 as slang shortening of public house, meaning evolved from any public building (1570s) to licensed inn (1660s) to tavern (1768). “1859, slang shortening of public house, which originally meant “any building open to the public” (1570s), then “inn that provides food and is licensed to sell ale, wine, and spirits” (1660s), and finally “tavern” (1768).” JoelUpchurch, why don’t you just _stop_? Every single thing you say is simply nonsense. Untrue, utterly misinformed, and frequently utterly offensive. > [@](#): > > It is clear that they don’t consider being in a public house as being in pub “They”? What, the anonymous random people who write Wikipedia articles? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/166 "2011-08-26T02:55:56Z")
If you look at post 164, you will notice you aren’t considered drinking in public until you leave the pub. I think you understood my question correctly the first time and then realized your answer made you look bad and now you claim you are spending thousands of pounds in cab fare because you live too far to walk home from your pub. This doesn’t make sense because I was asking about drinking in your neighborhood, not across town. Your mugging comment doesn’t make any sense either if you were drinking in a pub and taking a cab home, since muggings occur outdoors. BTW, I found another apropos Theodore Dalrymple quote in [lfpress.com](http://lfpress.com) today. > [@](#): > > The youth of Britain have long placed a de facto curfew on the old, who in most places would no more think of venturing forth after dark than would peasants in Bram Stoker’s Transylvania . [http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/2011/08/24/18597091.html](http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/2011/08/24/18597091.html) ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/167 "2011-08-26T03:24:48Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If you look at post 164, you will notice you aren’t considered drinking in public until you leave the pub. By whom? I consider a pub apublic place. Every sane person I know does, too. Whether you do or not is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > think you understood my question correctly the first time and then realized your answer made you look bad and now you claim you are spending thousands of pounds in cab fare because you live too far to walk home from your pub. Holy moley. This thread has become batshit insane. So, uh, pray tell. How do I get hone then? Do I walk the whole way? What route do I take? I’m fascinated! How long does it take me? How mamy people do I mug on the way home? Please, tell me more about my life! This thread had entered pure comedy territory. Now I actually find myself WANTING to hear more from you and your bizarre theories! > [@](#): > > This doesn’t make sense because I was asking about drinking in your neighborhood, not across town. Is my town not my neighborhood then? Fuck knows. I thought it was. Certainly my preferred drinking hole is across town. I’m not a fan of locals; too insular. But hey, you know better. Could you let me know where it actually is? What’s it called? > [@](#): > > Your mugging comment doesn’t make any sense either if you were drinking in a pub and taking a cab home, since muggings occur outdoors. YOUR mugging comment. You were the one who decided I beat up old ladies after they complained when I threw empty liquor bottles into their back yards. > [@](#): > > I found another apropos Theodore Dalrymple quote in [lfpress.com](http://lfpress.com) today. Congratulations. I’m proud of you. It’s nonsense, but it’s clear by bow you aren’t interested in hearing that. Enjoy your fantasies; shine on, you crazy diamond, you! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/168 "2011-08-26T05:22:09Z")
[quote=“Candyman74, post:167, topic:593120”] > [@](#): > > Is my town not my neighborhood then? Fuck knows. I thought it was. Certainly my preferred drinking hole is across town. I’m not a fan of locals; too insular. You know neighbourhood isn’t the same thing as town. Do you assume Kensington is the same as Spitalfields? One neighbourhood could be a completely different socioeconomic category than one in the same town. > [@](#): > > But hey, you know better. Could you let me know where it actually is? What’s it called? If you aren’t clear about what neighbourhood you live in, you can look it up here: [http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/](http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/) > [@](#): > > YOUR mugging comment. You were the one who decided I beat up old ladies after they complained when I threw empty liquor bottles into their back yards. I already explained that I mixed you up with a another poster on the ageism comment and apologized. You actually brought up mugging first in post 123. You said > [@](#): > > I’ve been drunk in public hundreds and hundreds of time and never mugged anyone. The term mugging means **Street Robbery**. If no robbery takes place, then it is just assault. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/169 "2011-08-26T09:52:26Z")
Okay, this derail (again) has officially killed my interest in this thread. As people won’t do the civil thing and take it to the pit where they can just duke it out I think I’ll leave you all to it. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/170 "2011-08-26T20:55:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Okay, this derail (again) has officially killed my interest in this thread. As people won’t do the civil thing and take it to the pit where they can just duke it out I think I’ll leave you all to it. Sorry, man. I didn’t mean to ruin the thread for you. I felt I had the right to repudiate accusations of horrific crimes, but I appreciate you’re not interested in that. I’ll back out of the thread. I ain’t gonna accomplish anything here anyway, and hopefully Joel is the only person who believes his offensive claims. Carry on with your thread. I promise not to post again in it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/171 "2011-08-30T11:42:05Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > This puts a lot of pressure on our national courts to follow European rule but, once again, the highest national courts still stand above any European agreements or institutions. For the record, in France, constitutionnally, international treaties are “hierarchically” above laws. In fact, this has been ignored by French courts for a long time, using a couple reasonnings I’m not going to explain here. Until the increasing importance and numbers of EU treaties, regulations, etc… made this position untenable, resulting in courts voiding French laws not complying with treaties provisions. Even though the EU was the cause, this obviously applied too to the decisions of the ECHR, forcing France to take more seriously its decisions (in particular, France has lost several cases regarding conditions in prisons, long pre-trial jailing, etc) By the way, since most Americans (and quite a lot of Europeans, I guess) are probably not aware of it, the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. It’s a completely different treaty, involving many nations that aren’t members of the EU (For instance Russia) since long before the EU became as closely tied and as large as it is now. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/172 "2011-08-30T12:14:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By the way, since most Americans (and quite a lot of Europeans, I guess) are probably not aware of it, the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. It’s a completely different treaty, involving many nations that aren’t members of the EU (For instance Russia) since long before the EU became as closely tied and as large as it is now. You’re absolutely right, my words might have easily given the impression that the ECHR is an institution of the EU, which it is not. > [@clairobscur](#): > > For the record, in France, constitutionnally, international treaties are “hierarchically” above laws. I know, section 52 to 55 of the French Constitution, right? However, you should point out that Parliament has to ratify or approve of a treaty first and the status of the treaty is accepted only under the reserve that the contractual partner approves of the rules as well. IIRC, treaties ratified by the President become effective immediately but only if Parliament has approved of them by law during an earlier stage. Which means that the high status of international treaties is granted by the French Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/173 "2011-08-30T16:35:36Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Which means that the high status of international treaties is granted by the French Parliament. Or, that the treaty doesn’t properly exist until it has been ratified by Parliament, which is considered a better representative of the nation as a whole than its President. OTOH and while I’m not directly familiar with French law and based only on what I know of similar systems, I’m assuming they have regulations stating a timeframe within which a treaty must be submitted to Parliament, and either rejected or approved - unlike the US system, in which apparently a treaty can sit in Limbo forever and a day. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/174 "2011-08-30T20:30:49Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Which means that the high status of international treaties is granted by the French Parliament. This is not relevant, organic law (the laws that pertain to the organization of the Parliament) is superior to regular law in the French law hierarchy. In both cases they have to be voted/approved by the Parliament. _Décrets_ (executive orders, President’s main weapon) are issued by the President, and are below regular law. As you can see it is not the nature of body that issues/vote a text that establishes its place in the hierarchy, it is the nature of the text itself. Treaties are above laws in the French system, period. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/175 "2011-08-30T21:35:15Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Treaties are above laws in the French system, period. As I wager they are everywhere - else there wouldn’t be such a thing as diplomatic immunity. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/176 "2011-08-30T21:44:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > As you can see it is not the nature of body that issues/vote a text that establishes its place in the hierarchy, it is the nature of the text itself. Still, it’s the Parliament’s decision to accept or refuse a treaty - they cannot be passed by in the decision-making process. But what’s the position of the Conseil constitutionnel with regard to .. well its own position in the hierarchy of courts? As I said, the German Federal Court has pointed out to our government that they are the highest authority wrt the interpretation of the constitutionality of laws, institutions and actions/decisions by political organizations, and not some European Court and definitely not any group of politicians, no matter what treaty they deemed necessary to ratify. Which means that no German government or parliament can lawfully approve of a treaty that contradicts the constitution. The constitution has to be adapted first and since its core cannot be altered by any majority in Parliament, there are limits to the nature of treaties that can be accepted - as long as the nation does not merge into something else. And that’s the reason why it’s legally so important that the EU is not considered a nation, not even a proto-nation but a union of nations. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/177 "2011-08-31T17:39:27Z")
Euro credit markets starting to freeze up again à la 2008. Things could start getting tricky for western europe and the wider economy very soon now. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120/178 "2011-09-01T14:28:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > By “America” the OP means just the United States, right? “America” could apply to the North and South American continents, which contain a few countries which are clearly not very free at all, what with various military juntas and whatnot. Now just hold on a minute there. How many countries in the Americas are currently ruled by military dictatorships or juntas? Please [count them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship#Current_cases). Don’t keep up with Latin America much, do you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-or-western-europe/593120.md?page=8)