# America : Shut yer hole about being the "Land of the Free". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436 "2004-07-29T14:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/41 "2004-07-29T15:21:07Z")
The Republic has well and truly go it’s act together. Celtic tiger and all that. The money that leaves this country and ends up in the US is a huge amount. approx 80+ intel chips made in Ireland. Dell computers has a huge plant. IBM also has a FAB and serious manufacturing plants (close to the size of the plant in Burlingtom (VT)). It’s those troublesome Nordies that coz all the shit 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/42 "2004-07-29T15:21:52Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Oh, you joke-stealing bastard! That’s it. You’re on the list. If I’m already on the list, there’s nothing to stop me from spelling your name **1no** , now, is there? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/43 "2004-07-29T15:21:57Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > Such-and-such a state: You can’t gamble > Such-and-such a state: You can’t buy dildos ‘n’ lube > Such-and-such a state: You can’t have an open booze container in yer jammer > Airports : They’re gonna start fingerprinting everyone that enters the fucking country? Yeah but didn’t all those states vote on those things? Or at least our fine representatives (for whom a few of us voted) voted on those things… As for the airports, what do you expect us to do? Someone set us up the bomb!! ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/44 "2004-07-29T15:21:58Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Well **Ino** , but given Eire’s population they can all fit in a pub. Next time I’m there I’ll buy 'em a round. ---
**Author:** ![Achilles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dc4da7/32.png) [@Achilles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achilles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/45 "2004-07-29T15:23:02Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Does that mean the US can stop giving money annually to Ireland since you’re “free”? > > [Lookie here for US Pork Barrel bullshit:](http://www.forbes.com/business/2004/06/23/cz_ic_0623beltway.html) > > [Get your shit together and then we can talk:](http://www.iol.ie/~sceb/ifi.htm) Yeah, well now my good man, if America is stupid enough to give it’s hard bombed-for dollars to Ireland and keep 39,500,000 of it’s own people in poverty, it only proves my point that America is not the lasnd of the free. Surely the “land of the free” would look after it’s own people before giving away its cash? So, America NOT= LATF. Ireland, taking dirty cash from the US, NOT= fucking saints, but at least we’re free. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/46 "2004-07-29T15:25:11Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > **World Eater** , I must say your idea of “freedom” seems to be mere hedonism. Drinking? Smoking? You know, you could do that in the streets of Moscow during the gulag years. You say that like it’s a bad thing. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/47 "2004-07-29T15:25:51Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > According to a recent study, on the U.N. Poverty Index, America ranks worst of 17 surveyed nations, with 15.8 % of it’s population living in poverty. > > Yeah - right on ! 40,000,000 people living in poverty - you’re doing a bang up job !! > > Idiot. From [the CIA](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sl.html#Econ) > [@](#): > > Sierra Leone is an extremely poor African nation with tremendous inequality in income distribution. It does have substantial mineral, agricultural, and fishery resources. However, the economic and social infrastructure is not well developed, and serious social disorders continue to hamper economic development, following a 11-year civil war. About two-thirds of the working-age population engages in subsistence agriculture. Manufacturing consists mainly of the processing of raw materials and of light manufacturing for the domestic market. Plans continue to reopen bauxite and rutile mines shut down during the conflict. The major source of hard currency consists of the mining of diamonds. The fate of the economy depends upon the maintenance of domestic peace and the continued receipt of substantial aid from abroad, which is essential to offset the severe trade imbalance and to supplement government revenues. 2/3 of the population engaging in **subsistence agriculture**! It’s clear you think America is the fucking anti-christ, but even I can do the math; 66.6% living at a subsistance level does not _in any way_ come out as ‘better’ than 15.8% living in poverty (the level of which, by the way, is above subsistance). We also haven’t been chopping off the hands of dissenters during a bloody civil war which just ended two years ago. Like I said in my first post, your hyperbole is egregious. Either ammend your argument or shut the fuck up, but don’t continue to make dumb-assed statements that I’m sure you know are false, and then try to hold them up to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/48 "2004-07-29T15:27:12Z")
> [@booka](#): > > The U.K. and Wester Europe is free because the U.S. bailed much of it out of WWII, in the face of almost certain conquest by Nazi Germany. This is a hijack but what the fuck. This thread’s a load of wank anyway. Bollocks. You didn’t bail anyone out. You fought a war the way you had too. A war which you were dragged kicking and screaming into like the first one when you had to deal with a possible alliance between Mexico and Germany. Nobody was bailed out. The US did it’s bit using all it’s capability which was considerable. Ireland was neutral(although leaned towards the Allies) during the war but over 100,000 men left these shores to fight for the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/49 "2004-07-29T15:27:36Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > Okay fine. We can’t drink 24 - 7. :rolleyes: Big deal. > > Basic Point: America is well nigh on becoming a shit place to live. Well, that explains why nobody wants to move here any more. Say, how’s that [broadband service](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=268497&highlight=dublin) coming along? Joined the 20th century yet? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/50 "2004-07-29T15:29:00Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > Ireland, taking dirty cash from the US, NOT= fucking saints, but at least we’re free. You are taking the piss. Buckle up it’s going to be a rough ride. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/51 "2004-07-29T15:31:29Z")
Incidentally, I’m still not exactly sure how or why you think Ireland is ‘more free’ than the US (which I guess is what your argument is shaping up as). Because our liquor laws are different than yours? Your sister couldn’t get a drink in Massachusetts on Sunday and now we’re an oppressive totalitarian regime? What exactly, if I may ask, is your point? What are you bases for comparison? What measure of ‘free’ are you using to make this judgment? You clearly feel strongly about this, so why not try to frame a cohesive argument instead of spewing ill-thought pseudo-arguments that do nothing but illustrate your total lack of interest in being objective. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/52 "2004-07-29T15:33:00Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > According to a recent study, on the U.N. Poverty Index, America ranks worst of 17 surveyed nations, with 15.8 % of it’s population living in poverty. > > Yeah - right on ! 40,000,000 people living in poverty - you’re doing a bang up job !! > > Idiot. Forgive me for jumping into this menagerie of crap that you have unleashed upon an unwitting populace with what would seem to be an easily and factually answerable question. First, cite called for on the study. Not because I doubt what the study says, but because I would like an explanation of what they use as their standard of policy in the U.S. and in the other 16 nations. Is it based on yearly income, spending, etc? Heck, if I’m a millionaire, retired and living off of my interest income, I could easily qualify as below the poverty line if the only yardstick is my yearly income. Does the study take into account government assistance, current cash on hand, cost of living between countries, and an innumerable amount of other metrics that could skew study? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/53 "2004-07-29T15:33:03Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > . . . Drink where you want, gamble where you want, Jonnies and Lube coming out the wazoo. Finger printing ? There’d be a fucking civil war.". . . Um, I thought Ireland \*was \* in the middle of a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/54 "2004-07-29T15:34:51Z")
Nope that’s the Nordies I was talking about. Trouble makers I tell you. Also playing with bombs and painting the side of buildings. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/55 "2004-07-29T15:38:56Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > First, cite called for on the study. Not because I doubt what the study says, but because I would like an explanation of what they use as their standard of policy in the U.S. and in the other 16 nations. Check the link I posted earlier. If you want to read the entire report (warning: 3.4MB PDF link) the UN has it available [here](http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/pdf/hdr04_complete.pdf). The Irish government complains that the information used is grossly incorrect and outdated, probably because the study concluded that > [@](#): > > Some 22.3 per cent of Irish people are described as functionally illiterate, worse than in any other Western country. > > The report also shows, however, that of the top 10 countries on the Human Development Index, Ireland has the lowest life expectancy and among the lowest spending on health and education. > > Irish women’s earned income is only 40 per cent that of men’s, and women are under-represented in parliament and management. Still, though, I’d rather live there than be chased by the Wolfman. ---
**Author:** ![booka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@booka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booka)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/56 "2004-07-29T15:39:26Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Ireland was neutral(although leaned towards the Allies) during the war but over 100,000 men left these shores to fight for the UK. HAHAHA! “Ireland was neutral.”. …although Ireland DID lean towards the Allies. I see. Hilarious! I can just see it now. Ireland stands back and seriously considers its position at the start of WWII, and in spite of the clear ability to remain stong and neutral and handle whatever outcome occurs, they grudgingly side with the Allies. And after Germany conquered England, they of course would have allowed Ireland to remain neutral, and affored them all the freedoms that were previously held. Uh-huh. Pull your head out of your ass. Ireland is free because it was afforded to you by others, NOT because of something you did or do everyday. “Mom, the cupboard is empty. Can you go to the store and get more food? And I need some money for gas and smokes since I can’t seem to hold a decent job. And, we \*\*really \*\* do need to talk about the serious lack of beer in the fridge - you and Dad are really slipping here, and I’m starting to have some concerns that you aren’t really doing a good job of taking care of me and my needs. Why can’t you and Dad tend to your responsibilities without me having to constantly badger you and show you how messed up things are?” ---
**Author:** ![Achilles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dc4da7/32.png) [@Achilles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achilles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/57 "2004-07-29T15:42:34Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > First, cite called for on the study. Not because I doubt what the study says, but because I would like an explanation of what they use as their standard of policy in the U.S. and in the other 16 nations. It’s the U.N. Poverty Index. > **[Google](https://www.google.com)** > > Celebrating the late We:wa! #GoogleDoodle You should try it sometime. And for all the Americans who suddenly get all “this is a load of crap” when someone points out the bleeding obvious, come the fuck on, tell me 1. Does anyone think America is the “LOTF”, and 2. Why do these people think this ? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/58 "2004-07-29T15:43:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t get you. Reference to the Straw Man fallacy, of which your OP is fairly teeming with examples. > [@](#): > > No-one. My sister just came back from a business trip to the US, and she showed me the dry-cleaning bag that she go back with her clothes : It had a huge american flag and “FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY” and “STAND BY HER” printed on it. WTF ? Are you people on crack ? It was her fucking dry cleaning ! Yes, and I personally apologize on behalf of the entire country for that, but one of the little-known provisions of the USA Patriot Act was a directive that dry-cleaning establishments start printing patriotic slogans on their packaging. You see, if we don’t do that, the terrorists have already won. Now, to further address your complaints: > [@](#): > > Such-and-such a state: You can’t gamble Such-and-such a state: you can. Touche. > [@](#): > > Such-and-such a state: You can’t buy dildos ‘n’ lube Such-and-such a state: You can! BTW, I’m terribly sorry your sister was unable to purchase these goods when and where she needed them. I hope she was able to make do, and may I suggest that next time she plan for self-pleasuring ahead of time? > [@](#): > > Such-and-such a state: You can’t have an open booze container in yer jammer Sorry; once more, in English, please. Assuming that ‘jammer’ refers to a vehicle of some sort, do you really think we need more drunken drivers careening around in our gigantic, lumbering SUVs than we already have? > [@](#): > > Airports : They’re gonna start fingerprinting everyone that enters the fucking country? No, just people from certain countries deemed by some bureaucrat somewhere to be potential sources of terrorists, who without a doubt, are even now plotting to destroy the laundry bags we hold dear. Unfortunately, no one asked me whether I thought this was a worthwhile idea before implementing this plan. I would have told them what I thought of it, believe me. Anyway, thanks for your concerns; we apologize for the inconvenience, and we’ll try and have everything straightened out by your sister’s next visit. ---
**Author:** ![Achilles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dc4da7/32.png) [@Achilles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achilles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/59 "2004-07-29T15:46:20Z")
> [@booka](#): > > Uh-huh. Pull your head out of your ass. Go easy on old Yo-jo. He isn’t even agreeing with me. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436/60 "2004-07-29T15:46:53Z")
First off, for those who say Americans have no sense of history, I think the shoe is here on the other foot. Ireland is no longer part of the British Empire because of a chain of events that started when a bunch of American ignoramuses fought for independence. Had that not happened, you’d (arguably) still be living in an Empire where the King was the ultimate power. The modern concept of “freedom” arguably began when li’l Tommy Jefferson and his cronies (say, around 1776) decided that government was based on the consent of the governed. And around 1789, when that same gang (pretty much) set up a form of republican government with a written constitution that guaranteed certain freedoms (freedom of speech, of religion, of assembly, etc.) Up till that time, other countries ensured freedoms, of course. The Spanish Government’s Inquisition guaranteed freedom from heresy, for instance. And various governments guaranteed freedom from nasty foreigners. So, America is entitled to call itself “land of the free” in the historic sense, in the same way that Egypt calls itself the “cradle of civilization” or that Italy calls itself the “home of the Renaissance.” Second, you seem to be equating freedom with the ability to buy things. The U.S. is a republic, and there is constant discussion about allocation of power between the states and the federal government. Those states where the legislatures have restricted the ability of residents to purchase or sell certain items… well, most governments do that. Your vaunted Irish freedoms don’t include the freedom to buy or sell heroin or other drugs, I bet. Different governments draw different lines, the question is only whether those governments are elected representatives, enacting what (presumably) is wanted by the people governed. And finally, let’s compare prices for commodities. America might not be the land of the “free”, but compared to Ireland (and most of the rest of the world), it’s certainly the land of the inexpensive. Plus, I’ll add, lower effective tax rates than most of the rest of the world (generally, the small number of countries with tax rates lower than the U.S. are called “tax havens.”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-shut-yer-hole-about-being-the-land-of-the-free/257436.md?page=4)