# America: The Same; Lame; or Better? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2000, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270 "2000-01-01T04:20:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![special](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/21 "2000-01-01T22:34:00Z")
thank you, fuzzy. & i don’t blame you for not wanting to go up against ‘big d’. maybe you could rephrase the question in a different way to get at the kinds of opinions you were looking for. i just re-read your first post & it rambled in so many directions, it was hard to tell exactly what your point was. & you can see that each of the responders seemed to pick some other part as being the basic one. why don’t you try again. hi, david! 'scuse me. i’ll get out of your way now . . . * * * The purpose of life is to matter, to count, to have it make a difference you lived at all. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/22 "2000-01-01T23:36:00Z")
fuzzy: A great many nations of the world have an official religion and/or an official language. As has been pointed out, one of the reasons that many Europeans came to the America’s in teh first place was to escape persecution from majority religions who exhibited exactly the same attitude that you are displaying here. The inescapable follow up to “America is a Christian nation” is “the Christian religion should be favored over others by our government”. Otherwise, the statement is empty of content. Our founding fathers, thank you Mr Jefferson, were wise enough to understand this and establish in the very first ammendment in the Bill of Rights that there is not and never will be an established national religion in this country. Sadly, two centuries after the fact some people still lack the perception to understand their words. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/23 "2000-01-02T00:07:00Z")
Thanks for the hand-off, Special. 🙂 Fuzzy-wuzzy said: > [@](#): > > I hate it when they move the topic to GD and you have to deal with David. Damn that David! He keeps bringing up facts! I hate that! > [@](#): > > Ok I agree that Congress has not established that America is a “christian” nation as such Well, that was a short debate. I guess we can move on now. Thanks for playing. > [@](#): > > How many nations…just out of curiousity do state a national language and a national religion Don’t know how many, but a fair number do have more-or-less official religions. Off the top of my head: England obviously has the Church of England. Israel has Judaism. China is atheistic (in theory, anyway). Iran is Muslim, as are several other countries in that area. I know there are more, but I can’t think of them this second. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/24 "2000-01-02T00:23:00Z")
Trout, you commie. Bill Gates deserves all of the money he has, he enabled billions of computer users world wide to actually use their computers. He actually turned GUIs into something marketable and essentially led the computer revolution. Sure, Zerox made the first GUI, but they never made it all that it could be. Zerox never made it both user friendly and powerful (why Apple never made it really big). I hate people like you who have this constant zero sum mentality. Wealth is created whenever something moves from less valued uses to more highly valued uses. What you fail to understand is that Bill Gates never took money from that homeless man who froze to death, he simply provided the McDonalds with the computers to run their logistics system to sell the hamburgers and keep McDonalds afloat from Burger King and Wendies. The homeless man was simply too lazy to get a job at McDonalds. * * * You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right. –Lyndon B. Johnson ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lord\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/25 "2000-01-02T01:52:00Z")
I don’t normally come here, but Dex moved this from GQ and I went looking for it. David’s arrogance doesn’t bother me. I still can’t imagine another moral philosophy of greater significance to the founders of this country and more entwined in our government and way of life than christianity. Or at least the bible in general. I did have something to share, though, on the topic. I got this from my Canadian lady friend. I won’t testify it it’s acuracy and it seems to be in the context of the Clinton impeachment procedings. But, yeah, I’m glad to be an American, I’m glad Canada doesn’t need to spend their money on a military for security because US is not going to let happen to them, and I’m glad that our prosperity flows into their economy and Mexico and much of Europe. I don’t want the US to take over the world, but I’m glad we can share what we have with part of the world at least. We have something to be proud of and our arrogance (like David’s) and individualism and “don’t tell me I can’t” attitude has accomplished more in 2 or 3 hundred years than the rest of the world has in thousands. —end of lecture, on with the quote. ---- > [@](#): > > * * * > > Subject: FROM CANADA: Let’s hear it for the United States! > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:07:56 -0600 > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. > What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: > This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in Billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is > today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. > When the Franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled onthe streets of Paris. I was there . . . I saw it. > When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This Spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries > are writing about the decadent, war mongering Americans. > I’d like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don’t they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes? > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about > American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again. > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. > When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old > caboose. Both are still broke. > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don’t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I’m one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out > of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. > I hope Canada is not one of those. I’ll go back to GQ now. ---
**Author:** ![THRIFTY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@THRIFTY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THRIFTY)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/26 "2000-01-02T02:16:00Z")
I am proud to be an American! We have done so much more I think than any other civilization is such a short amount of time. We are a rich nation, and one nation under God. We have freedom of speech and religion. So many opportunities at our finger tips. All we have to do is tap into them. But we must never become so comfortable as to forget that we have lost good men who fought for our freedom. We must always remember that there is always a price! And, we must always keep our Constitutional Rights and never let them be taken away from us!Especially the Second Amendment! “The right to bear arms so that we can defend ourselves”. We must never let that be taken away from us or we will become lame. * * * “Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” ---
**Author:** ![fuzzy-wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fuzzy-wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzy-wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/27 "2000-01-02T02:25:00Z")
Well thank you David for being gentle with me…I’ve only been posting about a month…and I’m still learning…one day I’ll get there ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/28 "2000-01-02T02:32:00Z")
Thrifty said: > [@](#): > > We are a rich nation, and one nation under God. We have freedom of speech and religion. Um. We have freedom of religion, but we’re one nation under God? We are one nation, with many different people who worship many different gods (or no gods). That’s what freedom of religion means. Fuzzy: No prob. Next time, though, watch out. 😉 One thing I’d like to toss out for possible discussion: “Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world than the pride that divides when a colourful rag is unfurled.” – Neil Peart, RUSH. ---
**Author:** ![THRIFTY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@THRIFTY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THRIFTY)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/29 "2000-01-02T02:45:00Z")
Well as I recall, wasn’t it suppose to be “one nation under God, Indivisible with Liberty and Justice for all.” ??? * * * “Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” ---
**Author:** ![fuzzy-wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fuzzy-wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzy-wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/30 "2000-01-02T02:52:00Z")
Thrifty that may be why no one knows the pledge of allegance any more…I remember that we had a young lady in school that would not do the pledge of allegance…didn’t celebrate christmas…etc. because of her religion…no one ever said a word to her. She just sat quietly in her seat while we did the morning devotion and the pledge. Of course that is unheard of now. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/31 "2000-01-02T02:58:00Z")
It was when some idiots inserted that line (“under God”) into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. But I hope you’re not trying to tie that to the framers of this country… ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/32 "2000-01-02T03:00:00Z")
Incidentally, my above reply was to Thrify – Fuzzy snuck in on me. 🙂 Fuzzy-wuzzy said: > [@](#): > > Thrifty that may be why no one knows the pledge of allegance any more… Um, they don’t? Says who? > [@](#): > > I remember that we had a young lady in school that would not do the pledge of allegance…didn’t celebrate christmas…etc. because of her religion… Gasp! No way! > [@](#): > > no one ever said a word to her. She just sat quietly in her seat while we did the morning devotion and the pledge. Morning devotion? Was this a private school, or just a bad public one? > [@](#): > > Of course that is unheard of now. Um, what is unheard of? Sitting quietly while being oppressed, or morning devotion? ---
**Author:** ![THRIFTY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@THRIFTY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THRIFTY)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/33 "2000-01-02T03:11:00Z")
David you are Bad! LOL I didn’t realize that “under God” was inserted after the fact. Too bad for the little girl who sat out on the pledge of the flag and devotions. But, I’m not for a one world order. At least not yet anyways. I have my own beliefs on that subject. * * * “Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” ---
**Author:** ![fuzzy-wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b38774/32.png) [@fuzzy-wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzy-wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/34 "2000-01-02T03:12:00Z")
Actually David I can remember the entire time that I went through the 12 grades of elementary school and high school doing the pledge of allegiance and a 10 minute devotion every day…this was before our atheist friends did away with prayer in school…be that as it may…I won’t argue the separation of state and religion…but here in the South…it is still done in many public schools…you just don’t hear about it and it’s not publicized…mainly because the parents approve of it and know that it would be done away with if anything was said. Not saying that it is right or wrong…just that it is still being done in much of the South. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/35 "2000-01-02T03:24:00Z")
Just for the record- a previous post cited some once well-known commentary from Gordon Sinclair > [@](#): > > ## I got this from my Canadian lady friend. I won’t testify it it’s acuracy and it seems to be in the context of the Clinton impeachment procedings. SNIP… > > Subject: FROM CANADA: Let’s hear it for the United States! > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:07:56 -0600 > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. > What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: Actually that came out at the time of the Vietnam War or Watergate, back in the early 70s. For awhile a lot of radio stations even played tapes of his commentary with background instrumentals of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. IIRC Gordon Sinclair has been dead for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lord\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/36 "2000-01-02T03:32:00Z")
I’m glad you told me that, **nebuli**. I thought the content seemed to be old, but I didn’t know where it came from. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/37 "2000-01-02T05:16:00Z")
JimB wrote: > [@](#): > > I still can’t imagine another moral philosophy of greater significance to the founders of this country and more entwined in our government and way of life than christianity. Or at least the bible in general. Really? Is that why the words “Christian”, “Jesus”, “Christ”, “Bible”, and “God” (apart from the phrase “Nature’s God”) don’t occur anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution? And please tell me where in the Bible it describes a representative democracy, a bicameral legislature, or a 3-branch system of checks and balances. * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/38 "2000-01-02T14:29:00Z")
I am absolutely proud to be an American. The more I come to understand about other cultures and other governments, the more proud I am. We really do have it all here: Wealth, freedom and most importantly, opportunity. Many other nations lack all three. I am not especially proud that some of my fellow countrymen lack a basic understanding of our constitution and why things such as not having a state established religion are prohibited. It speaks volumes on how complacency leads to apathy. Nepal has Hinduism as their national religion and it is against the law there to change one’s religion. If Christianity were established as the national religion here, it would be taught in schools, laws reflecting Christian morality would be passed, state monies would be given to support churches and much of our admirable diversity (which has greatly helped lead us to our success) would be lost. No thanks. Someone made a comment along the lines of, “Ya, but we still have people starving in the street.” I counter that with “Very few”. There are many social programs available, shelters, etc. These may not be perfect, but they are options. In many countries, there is no safty net whatsoever. You work, your family takes care of you or you die. Period. No food stamps, no welfare checks, no free job training. The poor in America live much better than the middle classes of many impoverished nations. IMO, we have no _real_ poverty here. Yes, there are people who need help and I’m all for helping them. Just realise that they are already way better off than many we share our planet with. * * * “I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/39 "2000-01-03T06:41:00Z")
**"We’ve done pretty good. We can do better."** I believe that this is tattooed across the brains of about 98% of all Americans. What a damn good thing it is, too! 😃 * * * “Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.”----Jung ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2000, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270/40 "2000-01-02T19:16:00Z")
David: > [@](#): > > It was when some idiots inserted that line (“under God”) into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. If you don’t mind, I think we should clear up that they were idiots because of their usurpation, and not because they believed in God. * * * “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-same-lame-or-better/17270.md?page=3)