# America, the second **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840 "2011-04-27T00:04:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/41 "2011-04-27T08:22:19Z")
Good for the Chinese that they are getting more wealthy, but it’s not really all that that impressive that a country more than four times the size is about to become as wealthy. The step they have taken now has been harvesting all the easy low-hanging fruit. The great test to see if they will be successful as a nation, is the transition to the middle class. And that one is much harder. And for all the new-won Chinese wealth, it doesn’t appear that it has been followed by any real cultural influence. American culture is everywhere, when was the last time a Chinese book or movie, tv-show, music group, etc. made a big world-wide impression? Not this century. They don’t seem to be overtaking the US military anytime soon either. So in what way is China becoming number one, outside statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/42 "2011-04-27T12:35:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > when was the last time a Chinese book or movie, tv-show, music group, etc. made a big world-wide impression? Not this century. Bruce Lee Ang Lee Jackie Chan And Chinese cinema has come to have a very large impact on the action movie genre in the US, which reverberates around the world. What was the US box office take on “Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon”? You are correct that they are not as culturally influential in the west as the United States. And that probably won’t change any time soon. But they are growing in influence in Asia, and will probably continue to do so. I have been saying for a while now that the US dominance of Western Culture was more luck than anything else, and now that the playing field is level, with nobody getting flattened by war in the last 60 years, we’ll see more of a move to equilibrium, in cultural influence, economy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/43 "2011-04-27T12:48:42Z")
I found it interesting when the Chinese economy officially overtook the Japanese economy recently, that few pointed out that Japan’s population is 1/10th of China’s. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/44 "2011-04-27T13:18:27Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > What was the US box office take on “Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon”? I was guessing that **Rune** might have said “this century” to neatly exclude _Crouching Tiger_–released in the United States in the last days of the 20th. Though I suppose the “impression” largely occurred in the 21st. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/45 "2011-04-27T13:59:36Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > [Military spending is] a great make work program for a huge variety of sectors. True enough, but if we’re going to spend money on make-work projects, wouldn’t infrastructure spending be a better choice? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/46 "2011-04-27T14:41:51Z")
As for the rise of China, my biggest concern is the competition for resources. High gas prices can inflict a lot of damage on an economy like ours that depends on automotive transportation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/47 "2011-04-27T15:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] True enough, but if we’re going to spend money on make-work projects, wouldn’t infrastructure spending be a better choice? [/QUOTE] If you believe that the military is just a make work program offering no tangible benefit to the US then I suppose it would. > [@](#): > > As for the rise of China, my biggest concern is the competition for resources. High gas prices can inflict a lot of damage on an economy like ours that depends on automotive transportation. Neither China nor gas prices are going to shoot up over night. China will continue to buy oil just like us, and they will be paying increasing prices for it as the price rises just like we are. And actually, since China heavily subsidized gasoline for it’s citizens, as the prices rise they are going to eventually have some issues there…many more issues than we will have. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/48 "2011-04-27T16:06:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If you believe that the military is just a make work program offering no tangible benefit to the US then I suppose it would. “Just” a make-work program, no. But we spend a lot more than we should, thanks to the lobbying of military contractors. That money would be better invested in infrastructure improvements. > [@](#): > > Neither China nor gas prices are going to shoot up over night. Have you looked at a gas pump lately? 😉 Granted, the recent rise is linked to the uncertainty created by the people power movements in the Middle East, but the point is that yes, gas prices can rise very quickly. And it hurts us more because our economy is more dependent than perhaps any other on automotive transportation. People here commute to work. As those commutes become more and more expensive, they have less and less money to spend on other things, and the economy suffers. Moreover, our goods are often transported by truck. As transportation costs increase, prices increase. So that’s a double whammy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/49 "2011-04-27T16:20:57Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > It seems the age of worldwide economical dominance for the U.S. will have an end in FIVE years. At least from what the news show. > > [http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/7263-imf-chinese-economy-to-surpass-us-by-2016](http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/7263-imf-chinese-economy-to-surpass-us-by-2016) > > How will the U.S. addapt to a China richer than itself? Will China develop a more advanced army? What’s up? Most of china’s military is a rip off of other countries technology. You can’t copy your way to the top. the countries that will benefit most from it are India, Japan and South Korea because eventually China will take Taiwan and we will sever relations with them. They can suck on our debt. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/50 "2011-04-27T16:29:35Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > China will take the U.S., if not in 4, in 8 years as much. > Sorry, fellow, but we better use the rest to the thread to see how America addapts to it. > Look at poor Britain, that still have those dreams of glory, with royalty included, no matter its economy has diminished like crazy since when it was the single global superpower. Is the U.S. going to follow that path? Or is going to accept its possition with dignity? When you look at the legacy of the British Empire (Canada, the United States, Australia etc…) it is alive and well and securely wrapped in a NATO blanket. China’s oppressive regime is an internal ticking time bomb. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/51 "2011-04-27T18:28:49Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > As for the rise of China, my biggest concern is the competition for resources. High gas prices can inflict a lot of damage on an economy like ours that depends on automotive transportation. Expensive fuel hurts poor people more than “rich” people. The “rich” Americans can cut back on their wasteful ways once the price really starts to hurt. The Chinese near peasant was probably already using as little fuel as he possibly could to start with. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/52 "2011-04-27T18:57:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you look at the legacy of the British Empire (Canada, the United States, Australia etc…) it is alive and well and securely wrapped in a NATO blanket. China’s oppressive regime is an internal ticking time bomb. I thought Canada, the U.S. and Australia were grown up, independent countries :rolleyes:… I see only New Zealand got an identity already. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/53 "2011-04-27T19:11:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Expensive fuel hurts poor people more than “rich” people. The “rich” Americans can cut back on their wasteful ways once the price really starts to hurt. The Chinese near peasant was probably already using as little fuel as he possibly could to start with. I disagree. Most poor nations have not built their economies around personal automotive transportation. So they will feel less of a pinch from higher gas prices. Cutting back on wasteful ways sounds nice in the abstract, but the practicality is if I am, say, a carpenter living in the rural US somewhere, with 15 years or so left on my mortgage and a 20-30 mile ride to work every day, high gas prices can take a huge chunk out of my budget. For that matter, if I am an office worker living in suburbia with a 15 mile commute in heavy traffic and 15 years left on my (underwater) mortgage, high gas prices can cause problems in a hurry. High gas prices are the reason Obama’s approval ratings for handling the economy are suffering at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/54 "2011-04-27T19:40:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Look at poor Britain, that still have those dreams of glory, with royalty included, no matter its economy has diminished like crazy since when it was the single global superpower. Is the U.S. going to follow that path? Or is going to accept its possition with dignity? You had me worried for a moment, but I strolled over to the window and looked at poor Britain. I’m pleased to report it looks very agreeable, affluent and dignified, so if this is the worst the Americans have to face, I think everything will be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/55 "2011-04-27T20:07:45Z")
This feels like a zombie thread from 20 years ago, when Japan was going to overtake our economy and buy all our property (like, say, Rockefeller Center or Columbia Pictures). Meanwhile, we’d collapse like the old Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/56 "2011-04-27T20:10:38Z")
Where are these posts coming from that India or China will surpass USA? The US has 3x’s the GDP as China. It takes the entire Eurozone to meet or surpass USA productivity. A country with 1 Billion people should have a large GDP. But, you know what? They’re still poor. Any time I read about how China and India are stealing our jobs and the US is going down the toilet, I want them to see the pictures I took on my many business trips to those regions to show them how poor the average person is and how way better it is to be dirt/working poor in any modern economy (even Italy, Ireland, Spain (I haven’t been to Portugal or Greece yet, but I suspect it’s comparable)). In terms of pure productivity, GDP is used China and India should be tied for #1, if we were all modern economies. In terms of relative wealth, the more accurate measure is PPP per capita where China is around 100. To say that China is a wealthy nation is like saying that Washington state is the wealthiest state (or Nebraska) because they have Bill Gates or Buffet respectively. To use a sports analogy, it’s like saying that the Cavaliers are the best team in the NBA because they have LeBron James (pre 2010-11 season). And, even if China surpasses the US in GDP, so what? Good for them. It means that there is another market for expensive US labor to sell to. But, right now, it doesn’t look like they have the ability to sustain such growth because of their economic/business policies, and their aging population, two large obstacles that immediately come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/57 "2011-04-27T20:32:00Z")
It seems like this will actually be a good thing for the US. As the Chinese economy grows, and the Chinese people have more money, there will be greater demand for goods and an increase in wages. These increases in China, as a percent of current, are going to far outpace the same growths in the US. That will lead to some combination of increased imports into China and increased cost of Chinese exports to the US. In short, I believe we will see a reduction in the trade deficit between the US and China. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/58 "2011-04-28T02:01:52Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I disagree. Most poor nations have not built their economies around personal automotive transportation. So they will feel less of a pinch from higher gas prices. > > Cutting back on wasteful ways sounds nice in the abstract, but the practicality is if I am, say, a carpenter living in the rural US somewhere, with 15 years or so left on my mortgage and a 20-30 mile ride to work every day, high gas prices can take a huge chunk out of my budget. > > For that matter, if I am an office worker living in suburbia with a 15 mile commute in heavy traffic and 15 years left on my (underwater) mortgage, high gas prices can cause problems in a hurry. High gas prices are the reason Obama’s approval ratings for handling the economy are suffering at the moment. Those are different realities. I could bet the U.S. is too much dependend on cars and oil for heating. I live in Chile, in a large city. I have a car and a van, but I don’t drive any of them during weekdays because oil, plus taxed highways, plus parking get very expensive in here. Besides, traffic is crazy and very slow, so I better ride the subway. Even more, we don’t have in this part of the country, polar weather at all, so heating is also minor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/59 "2011-04-28T03:41:54Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I thought Canada, the U.S. and Australia were grown up, independent countries :rolleyes:… I see only New Zealand got an identity already. :dubious: you really don’t understand the relationships between these countries at all. You can start by reading up on the [British Monarchy](http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchAndCommonwealth/TheCommonwealth/TheCommonwealth.aspx) and then review world history over the last century. Many former colonies still hold a relationship with the Queen of England and those countries that don’t (like the United States) the relationship is equally as close. You can see how that relationship proved out through WW-I and WW-II as well as the cold war. While the cold war was often portrayed as the United States versus Soviet Russia it was every bit the common wealth connections of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840/60 "2011-04-28T12:54:48Z")
I know it. Don’t ask me to “understand” it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-the-second/579840.md?page=4)