# "America was founded as a Christian nation," a guest preacher at my church claimed. Please help me dispute that **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769 "2021-11-22T14:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![webwarrior](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/webwarrior/32/9529_2.png) [@webwarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webwarrior)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/101 "2021-11-29T19:45:26Z")
Doesn’t sound to me like you read it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/102 "2021-11-29T19:45:56Z")
So if I eat mushrooms, am I a sorcerer only when I’m tripping, or do I become a sorcerer for good right then and there? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/103 "2021-11-29T19:46:08Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > I can’t attest to the validity of the site Perhaps they’ll accept this cite: > **[pharmacy | Etymology of pharmacy by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy)** > > PHARMACY: "a medicine that rids the body of an excess of humors (except blood);" also "treatment with medicine;… See origin and meaning of pharmacy. While sorcery might not have been a perfect translation, magic and drug use went hand-in-hand. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/104 "2021-11-29T19:47:07Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > Doesn’t sound to me like you read it. That is probably because I didn’t provide a recording of me reading it out loud. I didn’t know you required such evidence-Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/105 "2021-11-29T19:48:02Z")
Now link it to what is happening _today_, which is what his claim was all about. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/106 "2021-11-29T19:55:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now link it to what is happening _today_, which is what his claim was all about.  webwarrior was paraphrasing a bible claim (Galatians 5:20). I don’t agree with webwarrior. Their idea of morality being the christian morality is ridiculous. The best answer (IMO) so far to the OP’s question was > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I would take a different tack. Ask the preacher and his ilk what Christian values our country is founded on. Feeding the hungry? Sheltering the homeless? Giving to the poor? Welcoming the stranger (immigrants)? If we are a Christian nation, wouldn’t our government by extension embody these core Christian values? And conversely, aren’t those who oppose progressive social values abandoning the Christian values our country was supposedly founded on? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/107 "2021-11-29T19:57:11Z")
Frankly, his attempt to link sorcery to to today’s problem with addiction and supposedly rising crime is akin to blaming barbers for surgical mistakes and deaths today because, sometime in the far past, barbers also performed surgeries. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/108 "2021-11-29T20:03:34Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > Keep watching CNN and NPR – everything is okie-dokey > > [Crimes against Urban Households up 10%](https://www.crimeinamerica.net/30-percent-of-urban-households-victimized-by-crime-in-2021/) That’s showing a 10% increase from last year to this year, which has zero to do with your claim about crime being up since 2008. I don’t watch CNN. I listen to Wait Wait on NPR, but it doesn’t cover crime statistics that often – it’s mostly fart jokes. This is a debate forum and you’re expected to cite your claims, not mention news sources in passing as part of something or other. So far, your cites are either missing or have failed to back your claims. Care to try again? Maybe you’re here just witnessing about Christianity – that’s allowed in this forum as well, but please do us the courtesy in letting us know that you’re just witnessing, not debating. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![webwarrior](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/webwarrior/32/9529_2.png) [@webwarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webwarrior)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/109 "2021-11-29T20:04:52Z")
I don’t know, bobot. Take the red pill, and get back to me. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/110 "2021-11-29T20:05:47Z")
All this is an interesting example of where the OP conundrum comes from. As mentioned, from every documentable source, the framers of the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, Constitution, Federalist Papers and Bill of Rights were creating this organized union, later federal republic, were constructing it on the basis of the Enlightenment Philosophers plus the Common Law. Not on the basis of the KJV. The nation was constituted as a nation wherein the population was majority Christian, and the predominant sociocultural values and mores were Christian, yes. And many of the 13 colonies had institutional establishment of religion. That cannot be disputed. BUT, _the Federal Republic_, as created, nowhere is committed by its founding documents or by the words of their framers, to propagating and upholding Christianity. Liberty, yes, rule by consent of the governed, yes, fair trials, yes, sanctity of homes and of private papers, yes, protection of property, yes, the “pursuit of happiness” whatever that is, sure, throw that in also. The Praise and Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ and carrying the Good News to others? Appears nowhere. That, @webwarrior, is our disagreement. At the time of founding, America was a “Christian nation” in that it was a nation of Christians living as such with many institutional norms based on Christian teachings. But America was not founded “as a Christian Nation” in some sort of sense that America, to be America, _must_ live by Christian ways. The founders _ **left that to each of us** _. It is not a function of “America” the institutional body to make us live on the righteous path, and it takes no legitimacy out of the American legal and political institution for it to adopt secularist-based policy. ETA: Really?? _“Take the Red Pill”??_ That’s not serious. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/111 "2021-11-29T20:06:47Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > Keep watching CNN and NPR – everything is okie-dokey This is called the availability heuristic. If you see a lot of individual stories about something, like crime, you think it is widespread. That’s why for a long time people thought air travel was more dangerous than car travel - you got headlines about plane crashes. You can’t judge the crime rate by the “if it bleeds, it leads” TV stations. Look up the statistics. Plus, it is fallacious to assume that even if sorcerers use drugs, all drug users are involved with sorcery. But maybe you think Purdue Pharma is full of witches or something. I agree with you that Paine was brilliant. You should read his “Age of Reason” some day, the book where he tears the Bible and Christianity to shreds. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/112 "2021-11-29T20:14:44Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > It is hard to go online without seeing some mention or report of violent crime sweeping the nation. Search for yourself and see…dozens of pages. > [100 Most Dangerous](https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-most-dangerous-cities-in-america/25/) I see a lot of Bible Belt cities in the top 25. From that I draw the completely valid conclusion that an excessive of religiosity is tied to violent crime. So we’d all be a lot safer in a city populated mostly or entirely by pagans or atheists. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/113 "2021-11-29T20:16:17Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/114 "2021-11-29T20:18:22Z")
**Modnote** : You’re failing to argue the content of the posts and are mildly attacking the posters with several of your replies. Please dial it down. I know you’re new, so I encourage you to follow our simple rules of debate. You might want to review the rules for Great Debates and Politics and Elections: > [@New Rules for Politics and Elections – January 2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rules-for-politics-and-elections-january-2020/845727): > > Moderation in Great Debates and Politics and Elections In general, Great Debates and Politics and Elections are the most contentious fora on the SDMB. Because of that, you’ll find that moderation is more active and prone to sanctioning posters. You can compare it to sitting at the holiday dinner next to the crazy uncle who can’t help being unpleasant. Please don’t be that guy. Be aware that most rules are not ‘bright line’. This is intentional on our part as we believe such encourages poor … ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/115 "2021-11-29T20:28:49Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/116 "2021-11-29T21:00:34Z")
You might want to take the tactic of accepting the conclusion, and then asking questions from there. “So, if we are God’s chosen nation, why would he strike us with a plague in the fourth year of Trump’s reign?” “If God wanted Trump to remain President, wouldn’t he have waited until after Trump’s Presidency to smite the US with a plague?” “What sin were we being punished for re: COVID. Electing Trump?” Along this vein, when online, I just throw my “Book of COVID” link at these people, then watch them froth. > ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/117 "2021-11-29T23:14:53Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > the colonists fled either royalty or Empire. All of a sudden, they had all this free time with no one to tell them what to do and they couldn’t handle it. Most of them were trying to build something similar to European living situations more or less from scratch, everything from buildings to gardens. All of them were trying to survive in a place with no infrastructure that they recognized as such and a climate and ecology that they didn’t understand. Why do you think they had lots more free time than they would have had if they’d stayed in Europe? And why do you think the people who emphasized liberty in their founding documents did so because they wanted somebody to tell them what to do? > [@webwarrior](#): > > Amidst the enthusiasm for ideals, it is sometimes easy to overlook the fact that for most, the colonies attracted adventurers and businessmen. The religious idealists were vocal mainly in order to thwart, as I said in my orignal reply, a revival of the Inquisition. Now you appear to be arguing that the nation at its founding was primarily secular. > [@webwarrior](#): > > When the Minutemen met the British at the bridge at Concord, they had soomething else in mind. Call it destiny. I’d call it a desire not to pay their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![webwarrior](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/webwarrior/32/9529_2.png) [@webwarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webwarrior)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/118 "2021-11-29T23:18:30Z")
Nowhere did I propose or support the idea that the Founding Fathers convened for the purpose of chartering a Christian nation. If anything, the Constitution was drafted in such a way as to prohibit a replay of what had been going on in Europe, (France, England, and the Netherlands in particular) where the heavy hands of some royalty and the fallen Empire of Rome has made life miserable for Northern Europeans. Individual freedom & individual rights – what a concept. My definition of the sad state the residents of Massachusetts found themselves in as a result of “too much time on their hands” is history. One year, they neglected to lay in provisions for the winter and the Indians had to bail them out from their storehouses. The Pilgrims were too busy partying. Yes, I likened the sloth of the colonists to the sad state of morality in America today. That set off a firestorm. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/119 "2021-11-29T23:24:30Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > The Pilgrims were too busy partying. Nobody parties like a Puritan. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/120 "2021-11-29T23:26:32Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > it is unsafe to walk the streets at night. It’s not. I’ve been walking the streets of L.A. at night pretty frequently lately. Violent crime in general is on a long term downward trend. > [@webwarrior](#): > > Sorcery employs mind altering drugs. Period. Maybe some does. But even if true, that doesn’t mean people using mind altering drugs are practicing sorcery. > [@webwarrior](#): > > Keep watching CNN and NPR – everything is okie-dokey > > [Crimes against Urban Households up 10%](https://www.crimeinamerica.net/30-percent-of-urban-households-victimized-by-crime-in-2021/) Really? A one year increase? During a year like no other? That the best you got? > [@bobot](#): > > So if I eat mushrooms, am I a sorcerer only when I’m tripping, or do I become a sorcerer for good right then and there? Does a candy flip make me super powerful? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769.md?page=7)