# "America was founded as a Christian nation," a guest preacher at my church claimed. Please help me dispute that **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769 "2021-11-22T14:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/121 "2021-11-29T23:36:48Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > One year, they neglected to lay in provisions for the winter and the Indians had to bail them out from their storehouses. The Pilgrims were too busy partying. Cite, please, that their lack of laying in sufficient provisions for the winter was due to having spent too much time partying and not to other reasons: such as arriving diseased, not understanding or being equipped for the climate, and not understanding enough about the area to know how to make a living for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/122 "2021-11-29T23:40:22Z")
I thought the Pilgrims would whup your ass if you thought of not working on Christmas Day. Their theory was the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention Christmas so it’s not a holiday for them. So the furthest thing from party animals. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/123 "2021-11-29T23:45:00Z")
The Pilgrims and the Puritans actually don’t comport quite with many of the conceptions we have of them. While there was a streak of teetotaling in them, by all accounts when drink was available they did drink heavily. At Plymouth they didn’t have alcohol though early on, in fact the ships had run out of alcohol around the time they disembarked. The most significant reason the Plymouth settlers had poor stores for the winter is they had essentially no fucking clue what they were doing. They weren’t professional colonists, they were people of mixed occupational background who had lived in England, then moved to Holland to prepare for their trip, and had no real familiarity with what plants grew or how to grew them properly in the New England environment. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/124 "2021-11-29T23:53:43Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > That set off a firestorm. Go figure. A firestorm where? In this thread? Are you going to retract your claim that crime has been increasing since 2008? Or, at least provide some counter-cite for the ones provided to you? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/125 "2021-11-29T23:56:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Cite, please, that their lack of laying in sufficient provisions for the winter was due to having spent too much time partying… I think it’s an established fact that the pilgrims were heavily into sorcery. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/126 "2021-11-30T02:44:50Z")
Don’t bother with it – it’s your average Jack Chick type of crankery. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/127 "2021-11-30T09:51:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You might want to take the tactic of accepting the conclusion, and then asking questions from there. > > “So, if we are God’s chosen nation, why would he strike us with a plague in the fourth year of Trump’s reign?” > > “If God wanted Trump to remain President, wouldn’t he have waited until after Trump’s Presidency to smite the US with a plague?” > > “What sin were we being punished for re: COVID. Electing Trump?” I keep telling people: Exodus 32. _31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”_ _33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”_ _35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made._ [![](https://i.insider.com/603b2c6c13b221001876abaa?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp) ](https://i.insider.com/603b2c6c13b221001876abaa?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp) > [@webwarrior](#): > > The Pilgrims were too busy partying. > [@Miller](#): > > Nobody parties like a Puritan. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought the Pilgrims would whup your ass if you thought of not working on Christmas Day. Their theory was the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention Christmas so it’s not a holiday for them. So the furthest thing from party animals. N.B. The Pilgrims (who arrived in 1620) and the Puritans (who arrived ten years later) were [different groups](https://www.history.com/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences). The Pilgrims were religiously conservative but the Puritans were the big killjoys everyone thinks of. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/128 "2021-11-30T12:49:06Z")
It is true that Christmas was not considered a holiday in Massachusetts for a long time - I think school was held on Christmas in Massachusetts until a decade after the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/129 "2021-11-30T13:26:30Z")
Yeah, and the USPS started out with Sunday delivery along with an 1810 Congressional law requiring local offices be [open at least an hour on Sundays](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/11/the-unlikely-alliance-that-ended-sunday-mail-delivery-in-1912/281370/) (most opened longer than an hour). Note that in 1810 - a scant couple decades since the Revolution - many in Congress voting for such a law would have been ‘Founding Fathers’ themselves and/or would have been in line with their thinking. Religious objections (primarily by Protestant churches) did not carry much weight in court or in the legislature because the concept of a separation of Church and State actually was more in line with most of the posts in this thread. What ultimately killed open post offices on Sunday was churches partnering with the nascent late 19th century labor movement - it would mean at least a day of rest for workers. In other words, it is socialism that is to blame/laud for many businesses closing on Sundays in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/130 "2021-11-30T13:41:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > I thought the Pilgrims would whup your ass if you thought of not working on Christmas Day. Their theory was the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention Christmas so it’s not a holiday for them. So the furthest thing from party animals. > > N.B. The Pilgrims (who arrived in 1620) and the Puritans (who arrived ten years later) were [different groups](https://www.history.com/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences). The Pilgrims were religiously conservative but the Puritans were the big killjoys everyone thinks of. Sorry. I think I was lumping them together. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/131 "2021-11-30T14:32:23Z")
Mind the Plymouth settlers **were Puritans** – Puritanism was a major religious movement in England at the time (Oliver Cromwell who later ran the country for a while was a Puritan.) But like a lot of protestant movements outside the formal church system, Puritanism devolved into a number of sects sometimes with very divergent views. The Plymouth Pilgrims generally were different from the more influential Puritan group that was part of settling the Massachusetts Bay Colony. The Plymouth Colony wasn’t actually just a single sect of Puritans, there were a few sects in the group, the largest and most influential sect was a congregation led by William Brewster, they moved to Holland briefly in preparation for their ultimate trip to North America. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was influenced by a different and large group of settlers about 10 years later, during the “11 Years Tyranny” of Charles I (when Charles basically tried to crackdown on Puritans–the Tyranny refers to Charles’ rule without Parliament, but it was a time of anti-Puritan activity by the monarchy), a much larger number of them moved to and settled in the Massachusetts Bay Colony (which strictly speaking was not founded by Puritans, but they became a very influential group in the colony), the Mass. Bay Colony quickly eclipsed the Plymouth Colony, and eventually absorbed it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/132 "2021-11-30T15:37:34Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > The Pilgrims were too busy partying. I"m sorry I’m late to the thread, but this is the single funniest thing I have read here this week. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/133 "2021-11-30T16:09:40Z")
They hanged four Quakers for being Quakers. That voids the right to foundation status. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/134 "2021-11-30T16:39:58Z")
And burned a hole through the tongues of some, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/135 "2021-11-30T18:36:04Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Because at least a handful of them were saying “Amen” during the sermon, See that’s where the Catholics have all y’all Protestants beat. Catholic congregants keep their mouths shut during the sermon (with the exception of some laughter at the opening joke). At least, they did when I was still a weekly attendant. No idea if that’s been generally done away with in the past 35 or so years. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/136 "2021-11-30T18:44:58Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > In the same sense, America was founded as a White supremacist nation where the only people who had a say in civic affairs were rich (i.e., property-owning) White males. > > Ask the preacher if he wants us to honor that legacy. I took enough of a look at the video to catch a glimpse of the preacher in question, and my first impression was that he’d probably be okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/137 "2021-11-30T18:53:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > N.B. The Pilgrims (who arrived in 1620) and the Puritans (who arrived ten years later) were [different groups](https://www.history.com/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences). The Pilgrims were religiously conservative but the Puritans were the big killjoys everyone thinks of. Wiki seems to disagree: > **[Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony))** > > The Pilgrims, also known as the Pilgrim Fathers, were the English settlers who traveled to America on the Mayflower and established the Plymouth Colony in Plymouth, Massachusetts (John Smith had named this territory New Plymouth in 1620, sharing the name of the Pilgrims' final departure port of Plymouth, Devon). The Pilgrims' leadership came from the religious congregations of Brownists, or Separatists, who had fled religious persecution in England for the tolerance of 17th-century Holland in t... ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/138 "2021-11-30T19:02:46Z")
> [@webwarrior](#): > > such as Jonathan Edwards, who we still remember today. I quite like Jonathan Edwards. [Interesting style.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucvm66oQc7M) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/139 "2021-11-30T21:59:59Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I quite like Jonathan Edwards. [Me too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH5qJNl8qDM) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769/140 "2021-11-30T22:20:31Z")
Unfortunately, two of the figures most commonly associated with the Great Awakening, Whitefield and Edwards were slave-owners - and Whitefield was the driving force behind legalizing slavery in the colony in which it had been illegal. John Wesley, though deserves credit for being firmly against slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-was-founded-as-a-christian-nation-a-guest-preacher-at-my-church-claimed-please-help-me-dispute-that/954769.md?page=8)