# America ! WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL IN AFGHANISTAN ? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 8, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108 "2012-03-08T03:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/1 "2012-03-08T03:34:11Z")
In the [News](http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2012/03/07/afghan-president-karzai-backs-strict-guidelines-for-women/FckF2KSpV0V6a3GBaYSP2H/story.html) today. > [@](#): > > KABUL - Afghanistan’s president endorsed a “code of conduct’’ on Tuesday issued by an influential council of clerics, guidelines that activists say represent a giant step backward for women’s rights in the country. > > President Hamid Karzai’s remarks Tuesday backing the Ulema Council’s document, which allows husbands to beat wives under certain circumstances and encourages segregation of the sexes, is seen as part of his outreach to insurgents like the Taliban. > > **The United States and Karzai hope the Taliban can be brought into negotiations to end the country’s decadelong war.** -bolding mine Never mind that America is supporting the sick treatment of women endorsed by “our side” which pretty well returns Afghan society back to the days of Taliban control, but I thought that the reason America is still fighting there and supporting Karzai was to ensure no safe haven for terrorists. Explain to me how a sought after peace between Karzai and Mohammed Omar will accomplish that ? I just don’t see an outcome worth the life of one American soldier any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/2 "2012-03-08T04:48:28Z")
“Let’s declare ourselves winners…and get the hell out.” It was true in 1985, when Bill Mauldin said it of the Red Army…and it’s true today for us. The place is a cesspool, and that’s the way the majority of them seem to want it. I feel the gravest sympathy for the women we would be condemning to slavery, but we simply cannot civilize that sewer of a country. This one, we lose. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/3 "2012-03-08T05:24:34Z")
We are there to save that woman with the green eyes from the National Geographic cover. Having done that, we should bring the troops home. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/4 "2012-03-08T05:49:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **America ! WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL IN AFGHANISTAN ?** Much of it is the sunk cost fallacy. If we leave now and things are no better than before we invaded, then we spent all that time and resources and lives for nothing. So we keep trying to “win” an unwinnable situation. Plus we’ve never even really defined what “winning” would mean there, which makes it hard to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/5 "2012-03-08T07:46:30Z")
America ! WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL IN AFGHANISTAN ? Because that’s what superpowers in their declining years do? 1709-1713 Persians try (they lose, Afgans take the persian throne) 1748 Afgans declare independency from greater Afganistan (LOL) I dont understand what happens next, it seems like an entire generation of afganis just sat around and lived their lives (this wasn’t hereditary) 1839 the British empire takes its first turn (1st Afgan war) 1842 16000 brits die 1857 Persia gets their second turn 1879 Brits take their 2nd turn (2nd Afgan war) 1919 Brits take their 3rd turn (3rd Afgan war) 1978 Russia starts its attempt 1992 Russia had enough 2001 Brits (persevering lot) and Yanks try (4th Afgan war??) And still… Fighting guerilla wars against superior firepower is what Afgans DO. (they’ve been at it longer than the US exists) ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/6 "2012-03-08T08:02:02Z")
I don’t know, maybe there are things that military intelligence sees that you don’t see and they don’t feel any obligation to tell you about. As I said, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/7 "2012-03-08T08:46:10Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > I don’t know, maybe there are things that military intelligence sees that you don’t see and they don’t feel any obligation to tell you about. About the presence of a democratic state in a war? Then it ought to be released. I’m not talking operational stuff, but about the reasons for being in a war, yes. Although, we have achieved some things by being there. The heroin trade is back up and running after those nasty talebanis tried to stamp it out. And the “bacha bazi”, I believe they all it, the practice of warlords and other powerful people kidnapping young boys into sexual slavery, that industry is back on its feet too. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/8 "2012-03-08T10:58:43Z")
One reason, admittedly not a grand, sweeping, strategic one, is to save the [Roya Shams](http://persephonemagazine.com/2012/01/roya-shams-future-afghani-politician-if-she-has-anything-to-say-about-it/#more-59403) of that “sewer of a country”. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/9 "2012-03-08T11:49:46Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > About the presence of a democratic state in a war? Then it ought to be released. I’m not talking operational stuff, but about the reasons for being in a war, yes. > > Although, we have achieved some things by being there. The heroin trade is back up and running after those nasty talebanis tried to stamp it out. And the “bacha bazi”, I believe they all it, the practice of warlords and other powerful people kidnapping young boys into sexual slavery, that industry is back on its feet too. And Karzai has just helped put women back in their box. All Afghanistan is ever about is what bunch of vile back-stabbing, corrupt male savages gets to control, loot and rape what. With our allies - the Northern League - historically being the most vile. The instant our back is turned it’ll be business as usual. Every cent of our treasure and every drop of our blood has been totally wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/10 "2012-03-08T12:01:06Z")
And why is Australia still there? Bring the guys home. (And as for that mob of arseholes desecrating graves of WW 2 servicemen in Libya- they needed western help to get rid of their dictator- great way to repay it boys. Those involved are neanderthal trash). ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/11 "2012-03-08T13:54:52Z")
Personally, I don’t know why every soldier, tank, airplane, helicopter, and truck wasn’t right behind the Seals that ganked bin Laden as they headed back to the states. I thought that was the objective. Get bin Laden. And by the way … > [@Trinopus](#): > > “Let’s declare ourselves winners…and get the hell out.” It was true in 1985, when Bill Mauldin said it of the Red Army…and it’s true today for us. … that strategy didn’t work too well for Timothy Hutton in \*Taps \*is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/12 "2012-03-08T15:02:21Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > I don’t know, maybe there are things that military intelligence sees that you don’t see and they don’t feel any obligation to tell you about. Dear Citizenry, We’re seeing some real gains in critical areas. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Now more than ever, we have to stay the course. The next six months will be crucial. Love, Your Leaders ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/13 "2012-03-08T15:16:02Z")
It is International Women’s Day today. I wonder how that is going over in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/14 "2012-03-08T17:39:53Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > We are there to save that woman with the green eyes from the National Geographic cover. Having done that, we should bring the troops home. [Sharbat Gula](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl) is in her [40s now](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text) She is married with three daughters. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/15 "2012-03-08T18:46:03Z")
Once we set up shop…we never\* really\* leave. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/16 "2012-03-08T19:33:16Z")
Warm smell of _Papaver_ rising up through the air? ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/17 "2012-03-08T21:06:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > [Sharbat Gula](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl) is in her [40s now](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text) She is married with three daughters. Hmm, so what color are her _daughters’_ eyes? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/18 "2012-03-08T21:39:19Z")
The truth is, we dropped our car keys somewhere in the mountains while we were chasing a terrorist. As soon as we find them or someone turns them into the Afgan lost-and-found we will be out of there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/19 "2012-03-08T21:51:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Never mind that America is supporting the sick treatment of women endorsed by “our side” which pretty well returns Afghan society back to the days of Taliban control, but I thought that the reason America is still fighting there and supporting Karzai was to ensure no safe haven for terrorists. Consider…if ‘our side’ is this bad, what was it like when the other side had supreme power in the country? We are talking lesser of two evils here, and I doubt anyone is pretending that ‘our side’ is all that great…but the other side is pretty freaking vile. And not just concerning women’s rights. > [@](#): > > Explain to me how a sought after peace between Karzai and Mohammed Omar will accomplish that ? You are reading more into the statement than is there. The US and the Afghan government is hoping to engage the Taliban in negotiations, not put Omar back into power and give the keys of the country back to the Taliban. It beats the alternative, which seems to be to continue the killing until either they are all dead or until we finally get tired enough to just bolt and let the country fall back to where it was before. Folks might THINK that it was better before the US and our allies intervened, but recall that among other things, the environment in Afghanistan is what allowed a group like AQ the freedom to plan and train stuff like 9/11 and the other stuff they were doing in the 90’s. Us bolting now would only accomplish more civil war, more death and destruction, with the end result being something like the environment that existed before we ever went there. And women will still be oppressed. The ONLY way things MIGHT change is if we stay and try and straighten out the mess…or, at least make things less horrible. Is it worth the price we are paying? Gods know. I sure don’t. My inclination would be to bolt and let them go back to killing each other as they obviously want to do. But while that might be our best course in the short term, it might not be the wisest or even more humane thing we can do in the long term. > [@](#): > > I just don’t see an outcome worth the life of one American soldier any longer. Do you know the future? It’s hard to judge what is the best course at this point. We are there, though, and it’s hard to see how just tucking tail and bolting would have a good outcome either. I think it was the right thing to do in Iraq, but I’m not convinced it’s the optimal course in Afghanistan. Simply because they have been killing each other in job lots for centuries, and that other ‘empires’ have failed, doesn’t mean that past actions or outcomes predict future events. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108/20 "2012-03-08T22:53:15Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > I don’t know, maybe there are things that military intelligence sees that you don’t see and they don’t feel any obligation to tell you about. You mean the way that Bush had evidence of Iraqi WMDs that we weren’t privy to? :rolleyes: > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Personally, I don’t know why every soldier, tank, airplane, helicopter, and truck wasn’t right behind the Seals that ganked bin Laden as they headed back to the states. I thought that was the objective. Get bin Laden. No, bin Laden was never anything but an excuse Bush used to get us into Iraq, and the Bush Administration never looked at Afghanistan as much more than a stepping stone to Iraq. Which is why the takeover of Afghanistan was done in as quick-and-dirty a way as possible, bin Laden was allowed to escape out of indifference, and any chance we ever had to actually win the Afghans over (not much, admittedly) was thrown away by our neglect. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/america-why-the-fuck-are-you-still-in-afghanistan/615108.md?page=2)