# American Academy of Pediatrics Now Says Circumcision's Benefits Outweigh Risks
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 27, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857 "2012-08-27T21:04:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/81 "2012-08-29T03:43:41Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> If that is true, I stand corrected. So what’s all this stuff about being a Jew if your mother is one then?
There is no “if” about it.
Also as a point of irrelevant fact, Judaism did not invent circumcision: it was common among the Semitic peoples long before the Kingdom of Israel existed in the 9th century BCE, going back [at least as far](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision) as the 23rd century BCE. What changed culturally with Judaic circumcision was moving it from a coming of age ritual to a newborn one. Many of the peoples around them were already circumcising and many of those who were absorbed into the Kingdom were likely adult circumcised males who had the ritual done somewhere around the age of sexual maturation.
As far as income goes … in the United States pediatricians rarely do circs. The OBs do. They are in the hospital for more of the time and more procedure oriented. Oh there are a few local exceptions, but they are exceptions. This is not a money maker for the vast majority of peds and OBs can make more doing other things.
The policy statement really is not much of a change from the previous [1999 one](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.full) which basically also had said that the decision to circumcise was one that might be medically justified and that the decision should be made by the parents after discussion of the possible risks and benefits.
> [@](#):
>
> Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child’s current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. …
13 years later the update takes into account many additional studies and concludes that the evidence for benefit is stronger than it was, greater than the risks, but that the decision is still not a slam dunk. It is still not advised as a routine procedure and is still encouraged to be one made by parental informed decision making.
> [@](#):
>
> Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks; furthermore, the benefits of newborn male circumcision justify access to this procedure for families who choose it. …Parents should determine what is in the best interest of their child. Physicians who counsel families about this decision should provide assistance by explaining the potential benefits and risks and ensuring that parents understand that circumcision is an elective procedure. … adequate analgesia should be provided whenever newborn circumcision is performed.
Honestly almost every pediatrician I know is pretty neutral on circs. The medical benefits are real but they are not huge. The risks are real but even smaller. Doing it is a reasonable decision and not doing it also is. The passion that many of the anti-circers have about this though, their desire to _criminalize_ a reasonable medical decision for many parents to make on behalf of their sons and a fundamentally important religious one to a few, does mystify many of us though, I must admit.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/82 "2012-08-29T03:52:28Z")
Oh the matrilineal descent bit … tribal origins of the faith. I’d actually be very interested if an anthropologist could chime in with some elucidation on what factors seem to determine if a particular culture grants tribal identity by matrilineal versus patrilineal versus other factors …
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/83 "2012-08-29T04:05:53Z")
Attempting to answer my own question I’ve found [this article](http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1532/2425.full.pdf+html) that posits that being primarily horticultural is associated with matrilineal descent and primarily pastoral (cattle keeping) with patrilineal descent.
> [@](#):
>
> Using a behavioural ecological approach, matriliny and
> other aspects of human social organization can be seen as
> flexible, adaptive responses to the environment. We have
> proposed elsewhere that matrilineal descent might arise
> from daughter-biased investment by parents and/or grandparents (Holden et al. 2003). Wealth inheritance to
> daughters is adaptive if the marginal benefit of wealth to
> sons does not compensate for the risk of non-paternity in
> sons’ offspring …
>
> … , livestock tend to be transmitted to sons, promoting patriliny (Orians 1969; Lancaster 1976; Hartung
> 1982; Mace 1996). In this analysis, we have focused on
> cattle, because they are the only large livestock found in
> our sample. However, we would expect similar high marginal benefits for sons to be associated with other large,
> valuable livestock such as camels.
> In contrast to livestock, the fitness benefits of land
> under horticultural farming may be more similar for sons
> and daughters. Therefore, in horticultural societies,
> daughter-biased land inheritance, leading to matriliny,
> may be an adaptive parental investment strategy because
> of the risk of paternity uncertainty in sons’ children …
Ancient Israel was primarily horticultural. FWIW.
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### Author:  [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/84 "2012-08-29T12:15:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> The passion that many of the anti-circers have about this though, their desire to _criminalize_ a reasonable medical decision for many parents to make on behalf of their sons and a fundamentally important religious one to a few, does mystify many of us though, I must admit.
It’s elective genital surgery being performed on a child without their consent. And all of the studies showing some kind of minimal advantage were done after the fact to justify a procedure that has its origins in religious and cultural tradition. I fail to see why it’s difficult to understand why some people might be a tad worked up about this.
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### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/85 "2012-08-29T12:41:13Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#):
>
> …all of the studies showing some kind of minimal advantage were done after the fact to justify [the] procedure…
What’s your evidence for this claim?
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/86 "2012-08-29T12:46:48Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> If that is true, I stand corrected. So what’s all this stuff about being a Jew if your mother is one then?
What’s all this stuff about having the same last name as your father then?
Judaism is, essentially, a tribal identity. Imagine if you will a tribe of Maoris or North American Indians, in which the child’s tribal identity is set through the matrilinial line, while their clan identity is set through their patrilinial line. Imagine also that members of a certain tribe are tattood.
Is this “racist”? Well, no, because it has absolutely nothing to do with “race”. It is a form of identity that long, long predates modern notions of “race”.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/87 "2012-08-29T12:51:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#):
>
> Just ask the Muslims who practice it. They’ll tell you it has benefits that outweigh the negatives. For instance:
>
> "The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
>
> Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
>
> Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
>
> Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation."
>
> [Medical Benefits of Female Circumcision in Islam - Islam Question & Answer](http://islamqa.info/en/ref/45528)
>
> My point is that there is no way to escape the cultural judgment involved. We’re simply used to male circumcision, so we accept it. We go out and find medical reasons to justify that after the fact. Just like they do.
I see nothing “seriously proposed and supported by medical research”.
You are equating modern medical science on the one hand, and the ramblings of some cleric on the other.
Though unintentional, your position is somewhat similar to those who wish to teach “intellegent design” alongside evolution. Surely you do not really believe that?
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### Author:  [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/88 "2012-08-29T14:18:38Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#):
>
> It’s elective genital surgery being performed on a child without their consent. […] I fail to see why it’s difficult to understand why some people might be a tad worked up about this.
As a matter of course, parents must make decisions which are both elective and comparably permanent. As a young child my parents decided that I would undergo two surgeries to straighten out my knock-kneed legs — I had no input, gave no consent. Without the surgeries I would’ve had some difficulty walking but the risks involved, and the pain felt through recovery, were real and nontrivial.
The benefits of circumcision are much lower than those of my surgeries; the risks, the pain, and the long-term effects (e.g. noticeable scarring on my knees) are also much lower. In comparison to cumulative effect of all the decisions my parents made for me, good ones and bad ones, it seems almost laughable that I would get worked up about the loss of a bit of skin, the only benefit of which seems to be slightly more tedious genital-area hygiene.
Well, whoop dee doo. My parents done mutilated me and now it’s easier to clean my junk — someone call my attorney.
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### Author:  [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/89 "2012-08-29T18:05:06Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#):
>
> It’s elective genital surgery being performed on a child without their consent. And all of the studies showing some kind of minimal advantage were done after the fact to justify a procedure that has its origins in religious and cultural tradition. I fail to see why it’s difficult to understand why some people might be a tad worked up about this.
Very few people get worked up when someone decides not to circumcise their child. If you choose not to that is your prerogative as a parent. Choosing to circumcise your child is not an unheard of or morally horrible thing to do, and it gets upsetting to be painted as if it is such.
No one is manipulating or fabricating data to justify it, but doing the studies and presenting the data because it is a contentious issue and facts are helpful.
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### Author:  [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/90 "2012-08-29T18:08:41Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#):
>
> Very few people get worked up when someone decides not to circumcise their child. If you choose not to that is your prerogative as a parent. Choosing to circumcise your child is not an unheard of or morally horrible thing to do, and it gets upsetting to be painted as if it is such.
>
> No one is manipulating or fabricating data to justify it, but doing the studies and presenting the data because it is a contentious issue and facts are helpful.
It probably upsets FGM proponents too to hear themselves described as barbaric. They feel they are doing it for the right reasons, you know. They don’t hate their daughters.
They are still barbaric.
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### Author:  [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/91 "2012-08-29T18:13:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> What’s all this stuff about having the same last name as your father then?
>
> Judaism is, essentially, a tribal identity. Imagine if you will a tribe of Maoris or North American Indians, in which the child’s tribal identity is set through the matrilinial line, while their clan identity is set through their patrilinial line. Imagine also that members of a certain tribe are tattood.
>
> Is this “racist”? Well, no, because it has absolutely nothing to do with “race”. It is a form of identity that long, long predates modern notions of “race”.
I’m really not seeing the difference. Let’s assume it’s tribalism instead of racism then. What’s the difference between tibalism and racism?
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### Author:  [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/92 "2012-08-29T18:21:41Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> It probably upsets FGM proponents too to hear themselves described as barbaric. They feel they are doing it for the right reasons, you know. They don’t hate their daughters.
>
> They are still barbaric.
Creating false equivalencies does not make it so.
---
### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/93 "2012-08-29T18:21:44Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> I’m really not seeing the difference. Let’s assume it’s tribalism instead of racism then. What’s the difference between tibalism and racism?
I think the word you’re looking for is not “racism” but “nationalism”.
Yes, Jews and Muslims are a “nation/community/tribe(fill-in-the-blank).”
As Allessan once said, “if we don’t fit your definition of nation, tough. We came first.”
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### Author:  [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/94 "2012-08-29T18:36:56Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#):
>
> Creating false equivalencies does not make it so.
You are on the wrong side of history. This I guarantee.
---
### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/95 "2012-08-29T18:47:39Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> You are on the wrong side of history. This I guarantee.
That’s what the Bolsheviks claimed.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/96 "2012-08-29T19:01:43Z")
The discussion of Jewish doctors and bias on the part of circumcision advocates ends now. It’s a hijack of the thread and it’s also a distraction from the merits of the arguments. If posters have specific cites about flaws in the scientific data “supporting” circumcision, they can post those cites and make arguments based on them. However vague and unsupported allegations of bias don’t contribute anything to the discussion, and those are done with.
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### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/97 "2012-08-29T19:08:00Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> You are on the wrong side of history. This I guarantee.
Even if one accepted being on the “wrong” side of history (meaning that one’s ideas would be forgotten/hated) why wouldn’t you continue defending your beliefs?
---
### Author:  [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/98 "2012-08-29T19:08:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> The discussion of Jewish doctors ends now. It’s a hijack of the thread and it’s also a distraction from the merits of the arguments.
No one has been discussing Jewish doctors. That’s not a fair reading of anything that anyone has said, at least not this page.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/99 "2012-08-29T19:21:29Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#):
>
> No one has been discussing Jewish doctors. That’s not a fair reading of anything that anyone has said, at least not this page.
I disagree, and my instruction applies to posts on page 1 as well as page 2. If you have further questions or comments, please make them by the appropriate means- private messages or posts in ATMB. I’ve gone back to make my mod note more specific, and I hope that helps.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [August 29, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-academy-of-pediatrics-now-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks/632857/100 "2012-08-29T19:46:58Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#):
>
> It’s elective genital surgery being performed on a child without their consent. …
Parents are as a general rule entrusted to be the informed decision maker and to give consent or not on behalf of their children, within a broad range. That applies not only to procedures with clear medical benefits (for which the issue is if the benefits are large enough to justify a procedure or not) but even for procedures that are cosmetic only … removal of large birthmarks, ear tags, orthodontics … I never consented to braces.
In America we give an especially broad range when religion is involved … hence parents being allowed to have a religious exemption for immunizations even though the risk of that decision is significant.
You seem to be worked up over the fact that this involves a penis.
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