# American anti-Americanism: What's the cause? Will it persist? If not, then what?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 14, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659 "2003-04-14T16:10:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/21 "2003-04-14T17:59:08Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*It’s probably best to just leave the whole “anti-American” epithet out of the discussion and just take people at their word. Those who constantly harp on the US with NEVER a good thing to say pretty much expose themselves,… \*\*
Maybe the word is unfortunate, because it’s used as an epithet. I would like to move on to the questions asked in the OP:
1. Why is this position popular in America?
2. Will it remain popular?
3. If its popularity declines, what will the impact be?
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/22 "2003-04-14T18:02:41Z")
**december** , could you provide your favorite example of a sentiment by an American that is accurately describable as “reflexively” or mindlessly _anti_-American, not just anti-Republican? I recognize that you have difficulty observing a difference, but please try. Please bear in mind that a desire to recognize and fix problems is a desire to improve the country, not to tear it down.
The only “reflexiveness” here, frankly, is your own.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/23 "2003-04-14T18:02:54Z")
1.Popular? It’s a minority view.
1. Folks on the extreme of any issue will often be the most vocal, so yes, if by “popular” you mean visible.
2. More thoughtful debate.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/24 "2003-04-14T18:07:57Z")
You’re still making a false assumption. Criticizing GWB is not the same as criticizibng the US. I love the US and I think it’s being irreparably harmed by the current administration
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/25 "2003-04-14T18:08:21Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by december \*
> I agree up to a point. However, it’s one thing to criticize one’s mistakes; it’s another to wallow in them. As **TheMemeWarrior** says, too little criticism is a problem, but so is too much criticism. It can cause a nation to doubt its abilities, and lead it to avoid difficult challenges.
In a free country, you are always going to have a segment of the population that will disagree with government actions. You only see it as “wallowing”, December, because of your own right-wing leanings. I might just as easily say that the religious right “wallows” in its criticism of decisions favorable to abortion rights and church/state seperation. After all, they have been spending _decades_ complaining about church/state seperation and how they think America is going to hell in a handbasket, whereas the current Bush detractors have only been at it for a year or two. It’s all a necessary part of having a free electorate. What you are calling “anti-American” is solely a product of your personal political views. What is your reasoning for calling left-wing criticism of government “anti-Americanism”, without applying the same standard to right-wing criticism?
> [@](#):
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> I agree with **Captain Amazing** to a degree that we are seeing “anti-Republicanism.” But, there’s more to it. Many Americans believed that the US lacked the wisdom or the moral authority or the power to attack Iraq. Even when results have exceeded all expectations, that’s still a popular POV.
The ends do not justify the means. Surely you know that. Besides which, you are arguing against a strawman. Almost _nobody_ seriously thought we couldn’t defeat the Iraqi military. You are arguing that “we won, so the anti-war crowd was wrong”. But they weren’t saying we wouldn’t _win_, they were saying that our flagrant disregard for international consensus and for the rule of law is going to have serious consequences for our standing in the international community.
> [@](#):
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> I agree with **JuanitaTech** that patiotism is currently more popular than anti-Americanism. As I see it, patriotism is normal, especially during a war. I think anti-Americanism is a fad that grew out of the Vietnamese War, but which has now run its course.
I disagree. I think jingoism is the current fad. Had it also been the fad during Vietnam, we might very well have stayed in that quagmire for even longer than we did.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/26 "2003-04-14T18:10:16Z")
Dec:
Sorry to be somewhat dismissive of your post. Let me explain more where I’m coming from.
The vast majority of Americans are NOT anit-American and they’re smart enough to see it when it rears it’s ugly head. I’m much more worried about the ObL type of anti-West anti-Americanism that can brew in the 3rd world and generate mindless anti-American sentiment. One of the best ways we can undercut those guys is to REALLY lean on Israel to put a Palestinian state roadmap together. If the Iraq situation turns out to be even reasonably successful, we should be able to do that.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/27 "2003-04-14T18:11:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by december \*
> \*\*Maybe the word is unfortunate, because it’s used as an epithet. I would like to move on to the questions asked in the OP:
>
> 1. Why is this position popular in America?
> 2. Will it remain popular?
> 3. If its popularity declines, what will the impact be? \*\*
OK, since we agree that “anti-administration” is more appropriate, I’ll answer your questions:
1. Because George W. Bush is the biggest threat to world peace in the last 40 years.
2. No, it will grow in popularity.
3. American participation in regional wars through out the world, and the collapse of the American economy trying to pay for them.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/28 "2003-04-14T18:14:04Z")
> [@](#):
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> Diogenes the Cynic, why do you assume that flag waving is “mindless”?
Because it’s an act of cheap sentimentalism wiith utterly no other value. Putting the flag on your car or your clothes really no different than affixing a Packers flag or wearing a Favre jersey. It’s not patriotism, it’s fashion, it’s bandwagon fandom. It’s philosophically vacant.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/29 "2003-04-14T18:19:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*Dec:
>
> Sorry to be somewhat dismissive of your post. Let me explain more where I’m coming from.
>
> The vast majority of Americans are NOT anit-American and they’re smart enough to see it when it rears it’s ugly head. I’m much more worried about the ObL type of anti-West anti-Americanism that can brew in the 3rd world and generate mindless anti-American sentiment. One of the best ways we can undercut those guys is to REALLY lean on Israel to put a Palestinian state roadmap together. If the Iraq situation turns out to be even reasonably successful, we should be able to do that. \*\*
I’ll be damned, **J.M.** , I agree with this entire post.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/30 "2003-04-14T18:23:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> 1.Popular? It’s a minority view.
True, but I think it’s a big minority for such a view. That POV had far less support in the 1950’s when I was growing up. AFAIK that sort of view didn’t have much support historically. (with the major exception of the events related to the Civil War.)
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Folks on the extreme of any issue will often be the most vocal, so yes, if by “popular” you mean visible.
No, I actually mean the number of people supporting this view and the number of main stream institutions supporting this view.
> [@](#):
>
> 1. More thoughtful debate.
True enough. What else?
> [@](#):
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> **blowero** ,
> Had jingoism also been the fad during Vietnam, we might very well have stayed in that quagmire for even longer than we did.
Maybe we should distinguish 3 states: intense patriotism (“jingoism”), ordinary patriotism, and lack-of-faith-in-one’s-country. I think the level of lack-of-faith-in-America by Americans over the last 35 years has been high by historical standards. I think the main causes include Vietnam and Watergate. Also, ISTM, that once this philosophy got established in universities and certain media, it tended to persist.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/31 "2003-04-14T18:26:41Z")
DTC:
I fly the flag in front of my house. It’s something I put thought into and feel strongly about and has value to me. It’s insulting to use a blanket statement, as you did, that flying the flag is philosophically vacant.
Yes, flying the flag in and of itself is not a guarantee of patriotism. However, the converse (or is it inverse?) is not true either. Everyone who displays the flad is not a jingoistic moron.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/32 "2003-04-14T18:27:22Z")
\>\> sailor compared America’s foreign policy to “mugging an old lady.” Anyone still doubt that there are anti-American Americans?
december, I did not “compare american foreign policy with mugging an old lady”, and I am not an American citizen anyway. My point, which you fail to comprehend, is that if you believe your government is doing something which is wrong it is your obligation to speak up against it just like if you find out your son is about to do something which is wrong it is your obligation to advise him not to do it and that does not mean you hate him. You can love your son and criticise what he does wrong. I think others understand what I mean but if you don’t get it we can go over to the pit where my explanations can be clearer.
You have not responded to my question: Did you ever criticise president Clinton and/or his administration? Did you ever find any fault with the policies of any of the administrations? If so, why does that not make you unpatriotic? As some reporter said: “saying ‘my country, right or wrong’ is like saying ‘my mother, drunk or sober’, not a fortunate phrase”.
Why do you feel now that people should say “my country, right or wrong”? Would you also defend your son saying “my son, thief or not”? “My mother, drunk or sober”?
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### Author:  [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/33 "2003-04-14T18:31:03Z")
I’d argue that faith-in-one’s-country is inherently _bad_; heck, faith-in-anything is bad.
In my case, it’s not “My country, right or wrong”: it’s “Right”.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/34 "2003-04-14T18:32:06Z")
Two quotes from Edward Abbey:
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against its government.
When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/35 "2003-04-14T18:33:44Z")
Dec: You are correct. The “lack of faith in one’s country” was not seen much in the 50s, but became very popular in the 60s (when I grew up). It was just “in the air”, and I think I lot of people absorbed it (along with a lot of other stuff that was “in the air” at the time). Especially on college campuses. Who knows. My “ignore it and it will go away” stance might be naiive. I just can’t feel threatened by those truely anti-American folks you see from time to time-- they just seem pathetic to me.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/36 "2003-04-14T18:42:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by sailor \*
> Why do you feel now that people should say “my country, right or wrong”?
Thanks for asking this question. Let me clarify the intent of the OP. \*\*This thread is not meant to be about _should_s. It’s meant to argue that there has been a high level of critical feelings toward America for a period of years, but that peoples’ feelings are now changing. On this board, we have argued to death whether this is a good or bad thing. Now, I want to discuss the changes that are actually occurring, rather than philosophy of whether they ought to occur. \*\*
BTW I have not answered your questions, because they do not address the point the OP intended to focus on.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/37 "2003-04-14T18:47:41Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by december \*
> The anti-Americans I have in mind are those who tend to look for the worst side of the US.
You mean the folks who don’t go into mindless jingoism, right?
> [@](#):
>
> **1. Why is anti-Americanism so popular here in America?**
Because the United States grants its citizens freedom of speech, and has historically encouraged its use to criticize the government – citizen criticism of the government is an unspoken check-and-balance of the democratic process.
> [@](#):
>
> America certainly has flaws, but no more so than other countries.
Other countries also have anti-Whatever tendencies, but they’re not as noticable because they don’t have a rabid pro-Whatever crowd, so expressing anti-Whatever views can be done in civilized tones. Seems to me that the United States is the only democracy where certain segments of the citizenry are _encouraged_ to mindlessly support the government; the vocal anti-American folks are merely a counterbalance to this.
> [@](#):
>
> **2. Will anti-Americanism will remain popular.**
If we want to keep the United States as a free and open country that encourages debate and discussion, sure. If we want a nation ruled by government-sanctioned groupthink, then no.
> [@](#):
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> **3. If anti-Americanism becomes less popular, how will that impact society?**
The United States will be poorer as a result.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/38 "2003-04-14T18:59:44Z")
\>\> BTW I have not answered your questions, because they do not address the point the OP intended to focus on.
Of course! Your OP is based on the premise that those who disagree with the policies of the present administration are anti-American and that premise cannot be challenged. OTOH, when you criticized the Clinton administration that was patriotism on your side. The whole premise is ridiculous and laughable.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/39 "2003-04-14T19:09:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*DTC:
>
> I fly the flag in front of my house. It’s something I put thought into and feel strongly about and has value to me. It’s insulting to use a blanket statement, as you did, that flying the flag is philosophically vacant.
>
> Yes, flying the flag in and of itself is not a guarantee of patriotism. However, the converse (or is it inverse?) is not true either. Everyone who displays the flad is not a jingoistic moron. \*\*
To be fair, I didn’t say _all_ displays of the flag were philosophically vacant, I _did_ specify “_mindless_” flag waving. 😉
Seriously, I was only referring to (and I admittedly didn’t express it very clearly) the epidemic of shallow and sometimes hypocritical
use of the flag as basically a fashion statement or as a symbol of antagonism and belligerence rather than unity.
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### Author:  [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/40 "2003-04-14T19:13:52Z")
\*\* American anti-Americianism : What is it’s cause? \*\*
The Dynamics of American Culture have become so successful in providing for the General Good that a growing segment of the population feels left out of the momentious events happening in the present, and so only through the change of the present into an alternate world can they find purpose. Their bitterness is within. They have no care what world they bring into being because they themselves have no choice, they must hate the “today” in which they are so unhappy, to do otherwise would be to accept their own misguided sense of personal failure.
In other words they must say, “The world is wrong, I am good”. This dire need for social recognition transcends objective reality and precludes any search, attempt, or desire, for objective truth.
God Bless them all.
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