# American anti-Americanism: What's the cause? Will it persist? If not, then what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659 "2003-04-14T16:10:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/161 "2003-04-17T16:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I am in favor of people expressing legitimate concerns. However, when VP Cheney predicted (accurately, as it turned out) that we would be greeted as liberators, _Newsweek_ didn’t just express concern that he might be wrong. They characterized his comment as “An arrogant blunder for the ages.” \*\* What dream world do you live in december? There are antiUS demonstrations in Iraq every day and some of them have ended in shootings. This ain’t over and the iraqis don’t love you. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/162 "2003-04-17T16:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*When have _you_ ever admitted that _you_ were wrong? \*\* I’m uncertain as to your point, but about an hour ago I acknowledged being wrong in claiming that John Allen Mohammed, and his teenage accomplice, Lee Malvo, were both Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/163 "2003-04-17T17:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*P.S. regarding the _Newsweek_ quote: > > Note the telling word, “arrogant.” One side doubts America’s ability to accomplish certain aims, such as winning the support of the Iraqi people; they see the confident side as “arrogant.” The confident side thinks the doubters are undervaluing American competence.\*\* What’s wrong with saying that Cheney was arrogant in his assumption that we’d be greeted as “liberators”? He was making a presumption about what another people would do, a people which he has little understanding for and little direct experience with. Have you considered the possibility that using the word “arrogant” in this case was simply an accurate characterization, at least from the point-of-view of the Newsweek writer. To put it simply, using the word “arrogant” to describe those in power does not mean that one is prejudiced or anti-American. Sometimes, it’s simply an accurate descriptor. And before you say “But Cheney was right!” I’ll point out two things: First, it has yet to be proven whether he was right or not. As **sailor** , **Eva Luna** , and **tomndebb** have already said (and you continue to ignore), there is plenty of negative sentiment directed towards the U.S., coming from Iraq and the Middle East as a whole. Second, whether Cheney was right or not is immaterial to describing him as arrogant. A person can be arrogant and correct at the same time. So, again, what’s wrong with Newsweek using “arrogant”? And how, specifically, does it make their writers anti-American? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/164 "2003-04-17T17:49:36Z")
**december** , is it really unclear to you? The question being posed, and seemingly evaded, isn’t about your knowledge of facts but about your judgment. When have you ever realized and admitted that you had unfairly misjudged a view and those who held it? If not about the subject of this thread, is there any other time? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/165 "2003-04-17T18:05:25Z")
Well, to be absolutely fair, **december** did once acknowledge having retracted a portion of one OP. You can find the admission here (see his post from 10/28/02, 6:01 pm): [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2550779#post2550779](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2550779#post2550779) Other than that, I’m unaware of any admission of error on his part. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/166 "2003-04-17T18:39:28Z")
Aw, c’mon, guys, give **december** a break – given his advanced age, it’s to be expected that his viewpoints have long since calcified to rock-hard immobility… 😉 On a more serious vein, here’s a quote from the Mosul riots worth pondering: > [@](#): > > “They [Americans] are killing us and no one’s talking about it,” Zahra Yassin said at a hospital with her wounded son. “We want Saddam back. At least there was security.” > [Link](http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1237291&nav=4QcHFIFw) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/167 "2003-04-17T19:33:44Z")
Well, age is no excuse, if that’s even the issue. Even my extremely stubborn 86-year-old grandfather has been known to accept a new viewpoint here and there. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/168 "2003-04-17T19:37:00Z")
If only we could get Matlock on our side…😉 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/169 "2003-04-17T20:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*So, again, what’s wrong with Newsweek using “arrogant”? And how, specifically, does it make their writers anti-American? \*\* Using the word, “arrogant,” wasn’t as bad as calling Cheney’s correct prediction, “A blunder for the ages.” I focuses on the word “arrogant,” because it helped to illustrate the distinction I wanted to make, between those who think America has a great deal of ability to do good, and those who think America has less ability to do good. Maybe in an updated verison of the story, when the Little Engine says it thinks it can get over the mountain with its load of toys, _Newsweek_ responds that the statement, “I think I can,” is an arrogant blunder for the ages. 😛 My point is, it’s natural to make optimistic statements at the start of a challenging endeavor. It’s annoying to hear belittling comments, especially when they turn out to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/170 "2003-04-17T21:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > especially when they turn out to be wrong. And as you continue to ignore, they were not wrong. Cheney predicted a huge welcome for the liberators. Instead, we got a few hundred (out of millions) cheering people, plus small arms fire, suicide bombers, and angry meetings where people shouted, “Fine, you got rid of Hussein. Now go home.” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/171 "2003-04-17T21:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*And as you continue to ignore, they were not wrong. Cheney predicted a huge welcome for the liberators. Instead, we got a few hundred (out of millions) cheering people, plus small arms fire, suicide bombers, and angry meetings where people shouted, “Fine, you got rid of Hussein. Now go home.” \*\* Sorry, I saw it with my own eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/172 "2003-04-17T21:11:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*My point is, it’s natural to make optimistic statements at the start of a challenging endeavor. It’s annoying to hear belittling comments, especially when they turn out to be wrong. \*\* It annoys you to hear belittling comments… OK. That doesn’t make them “anti-American,” much as you might like to make it so. It just means that you’re easily annoyed. And, as has been pointed out to you over and over, Cheney’s comments haven’t “turned out to be” right or wrong yet. The jury’s going to be out on that one for some time, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/173 "2003-04-17T21:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Sorry, I saw it with my own eyes. \*\* You were there in Iraq, were you? I assume you mean you saw it on TV… which really means you saw it through the camera’s eyes. A very narrow view indeed. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/174 "2003-04-17T21:24:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > It annoys you to hear belittling comments… OK. That doesn’t make them “anti-American,” much as you might like to make it so. It just means that you’re easily annoyed. I guess we’ll just have to disagree. I see a pattern of saying those sorts of things about America as parallel to a pattern of making belittling comments about members of some minority group. > [@](#): > > And, as has been pointed out to you over and over, Cheney’s comments haven’t “turned out to be” right or wrong yet. The jury’s going to be out on that one for some time, I think. I agree that there are key aspects that are uncertain. But, there’s nothing left to happen regarding how our troops were welcomed, which is what Cheney was addressing. For better or worse, coalition troops have already entered the major cities and received whatever sort of welcome they received. You can argue about the degree to which the troops were welcomed as liberators, but you cannot argue that the jury is still out for some time. Even if Iraq falls apart into chaos a year from now, Cheney will still have been right, since our troops were welcomed as liberators when they first arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/175 "2003-04-17T21:38:14Z")
I am heartened by the number of responses that call total bullshit on any notion by the OPer that people who criticize this war are, inherently, “Anti-American.” december still seems unable to discriminate between people who disagree with his views and traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/176 "2003-04-17T21:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I guess we’ll just have to disagree. I see a pattern of saying those sorts of things about America as parallel to a pattern of making belittling comments about members of some minority group.** So, you’re going to continue to make the stand that because someone’s comments are “annoying” (your word) to your sensibilities, that makes them “anti-American”? News flash, **december**. You’ve lost this argument. No reasonable person would stand on such a weak premise. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Even if Iraq falls apart into chaos a year from now, Cheney will still have been right, since our troops were welcomed as liberators when they first arrived. \*\* And it doesn’t matter to your myopic viewpoint how many (or in this case, how few) people were actually there to do the welcoming? That’s as weak a point as your earlier one. If we find out, days or weeks or months down the road, that the majority of Iraqis want U.S. troops out of Iraq, will Cheney still be “right”? Come off it, **december**. If _nothing_ will change your mind on these matters, if there are no facts which will sway you, then your judgment is indeed _seriously_ impaired, as others have suggested. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/177 "2003-04-17T22:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Sorry, I saw it with my own eyes. \*\* Through your television, anyway. Photos and videos may not lie, but they don’t always give you [the whole picture](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm). ---
**Author:** ![futureman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@futureman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/futureman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/178 "2003-04-18T02:42:15Z")
Okay, December, You say they were greeted as liberators? Okay, I’ll give you that if you only say that more people happy to see us than those who were sad. I’m not going to give out the vast right-wing conspiracy idea, but there were no more than hundreds of people tearing down Saddams statue in Iraq. There are 5 million baghdadis. This is complete BS. Cheney expects the liberation of Paris. Its obvious from the tone that he had and his general attitude. Now when it doesn’t appear like Iraqi women are kissing American men in the street, then you backtrack and say, “Well, we only said that we would be greeted as liberators, and if more people liked us coming in than disliked, then that is what we meant.” Its so convenient how the right brainless folks (decmeber included) have VERY short-term memories. December, why don’t you go pour out some wine? I love watching those jackasses on tv that buy wine and pour it out. The only person that punishes is the idiot that pours it down the drain. Just a quick question. You seem to think that Condi Rice can tell what is going on in the mid-east? You are a fool. Just imagine what would happen in your home state of New Jersey if we decided to attack Syria and then Iran. You can make a guess, but you DON’T KNOW! Now, this is where you live! How can anyone other than you know more about the people of New Jersey than a resident? Do you think that someone from abroad who read a bunch of textbooks would know? But you are unreasonable. Let me tell you this: “Anti-Americanism” doesn’t exist inside America. Nobody wants America to fail. Everyone just has a different opinion than you. But anyway, you started out with a fallacy, then you continue extrapolating facts from places to support your opinion. I am not arguing anymore, because I don’t argue with people that are incapable of having others change their mind. I think that you, december, have been completely discredited by eveyone here by you inability to cede any points at all. If you think you are so damn right, why don’t you run the country?What’s truley sad is that you don’t understand that even the people you so blindly follow ( the president ), don’t think things are as fundemental as you do. Even the Bush Admin, the least compromising admistration, knows that it isn’t as clear-cut as you think. I have no reason to argue with a brick wall. I would rather argue with pro-war people that actually use engaging facts and don’t engage in guerilla verbal tactics. Just a quick question to all those involved in this debate: Who beileves that december could ever believe any view other than his own. BTW, december, did you ever answer the question as to what it would take for you to change your mind about why the war was necessary? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/179 "2003-04-18T03:38:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by futureman \* > \*\*I am not arguing anymore, because I don’t argue with people that are incapable of having others change their mind. \*\* Perhaps your frustration comes from the fact that you and I are talking about two different things. My comments were about what Newsweek said. Your responses have been about what Cheney said. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659/180 "2003-04-18T04:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Just a quick question to all those involved in this debate: Who beileves that december could ever believe any view other than his own. I would just note that this is irrelevant to the discussion. (I know that one tangent already wandered off in that direction, but it is not really germane to the issues.) **december** and I have fundamentally opposing views of the world, (and, of course, I am right and he is wrong), but I do not see that whether he is open to changes in viewpoint is really a valid topic for **Great Debates**. (Similarly, namecalling, _(e.g., brainless, fool, etc,)_, is not appropriate to this Forum, not merely because it violates the rules, but because it lowers the level of discourse that already tends to drop when the subject gets heated.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-anti-americanism-whats-the-cause-will-it-persist-if-not-then-what/168659.md?page=10)