# american beheaded in Iraq, video **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662 "2004-05-11T18:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/181 "2004-05-12T16:21:26Z")
> [@Freejooky](#): > > I’m surprised that no one’s mentioned that this guy wasn’t a soldier, wasn’t a contractor or civil servant - he was an American telecom business owner who, robber baron style, went over there to exploit and cash in on the rebuilding efforts. > > Looks like his check got cashed first, though. Oh yeah, this guy was a real asshole, all right. > [@](#): > > [While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food and that the only possessions he had when he returned were the clothes on his back.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq) It is only surprising that the Ghanans didn’t chop off his head, right? :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/182 "2004-05-12T16:25:33Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Even if it _were_, and I still don’t believe it is, that’s no reason to attribute anti-Semitism to every action taken by Arabs.Right, which would explain why I’m knee-deep in helping to build a fucking activist group that wants to really fight for gay marriage in the district. Because I want to give pedophiles the right to marry the toddlers of their choice. :rolleyes: Grow the fuck up. You first, pal. You’re not immune from uncocnscious homophobia if your sole tactic is to toss in irrelevant references to homosexuality and NAMBLA to derail the discussion. Being gay does not determine the opinions you think I’m allowed to have. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/183 "2004-05-12T16:36:10Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Where did you get that Lenin quote, by the way? Why, from speech given by [The Great One](http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/resource/speeches/1983/71983d.htm), of course! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/184 "2004-05-12T16:36:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > First of all, I can see how the word “pranks” may have thrown up a red herring, although I _thought_ I was clear in saying that I did not consider them such-mearly that I could see how a prison guard might consider leading someone around on a leash a “prank”. This was in no whay excusing their actions, or equating the action with an actual “prank”, it was simply saying that I can see some idiot being baffled that he had actually abused someone; “What? I was just joking around”. Not to get into a “What did you know and when did you know it”, but I’m still confused. When you used the term pranks, were you referring to the original photographs and investigation that we knew of, or were you referring also to the allegations of rape, beatings, and torture? I can see, in someone’s twisted mind, that the original stuff was “pranks”. Neither you nor I would use that term, but someone would. But referring to rape, beatings, and torture as “pranks” is so far beyond the realm of understanding I cannot even fathom it. That is why I assumed your prank comment and your later demand for proof, were done without knowledge of the allegations. In more basic terms, I’m giving you an out. If you tell me that you didn’t know about the allegations when you posted that stuff, fine. Then I’ll let you go on with your discussion of levels of proof, what is acceptable, etc, and bow out. However, if you knew about the allegations and still referred to them as “pranks” (even if only in the mind of the soldiers who committed them), and still demanded proof or a retraction, well, then we’re in a different, more upsetting ballpark. I just want to know _your_ state of mind when you posted those comments. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/185 "2004-05-12T16:37:24Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Now, as to the more serious( as if the first ones weren’t serious enough, oy vey! ) allegations: I repeat what I have said before. If, as Shayna said in her last screed, there is credible testemony from eyewitnesses to deeper abuses, (and maybe you have a link to a transcript of this testimony? Yes? No? Something other than hearsay “Well, someone else said XXX”)I would expect charges to be brought. The same for photos and videotapes. That’s all that I stated for my standard of proof. ANYTIME there is a high profile case like this one, accusations, alligations and rumor fly around like ticker tape. It’s really easy to get outraged and slip your brain into neutral while you foam at the mouth, I prefer not to do so simply at the mention of something outrageous, otherwise all that results is a giant game of he said/she said-he said she said while she said he said, etc… > > These are allegations. If they are true, hell, I would be all for executing the people responsible(after they have been found guilty at a fair trial, of course) for these atrocities, I believe that there are still provisions for firing squad in the UCMJ(I may be wrong there, IANAL). I am not going to jump to condem these men and women just because NBC news reports that someone in the military says they did something vile, however. Either use this measuring stick consistently, or chuck it in the garbage. Would you have used this logic in regards to SH pre-invasion? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/186 "2004-05-12T16:40:23Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > These are allegations. If they are true, hell, I would be all for executing the people responsible(after they have been found guilty at a fair trial, of course) for these atrocities, I believe that there are still provisions for firing squad in the UCMJ(I may be wrong there, IANAL). I am not going to jump to condem these men and women just because NBC news reports that someone in the military says they did something vile, however. WHICH “men and women” are we supposedly condemning? C’mon, name names. Tell us who your opponents in this thread have been condemning for rape, murder, etc. Or maybe you could just develop the common fucking sense that tells the rest of us that having sex with prisoners, videotaping other people who are raping teenage boys, and beating people to death is, like, _wrong_. Even if we don’t know the names, ranks, and serial numbers of the people responsible. [sub]“Disingenuous pigfucker” . . . I like that one, **Shayna**.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/187 "2004-05-12T16:46:32Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > You first, pal. You’re not immune from uncocnscious homophobia if your sole tactic is to toss in irrelevant references to homosexuality and NAMBLA to derail the discussion. Being gay does not determine the opinions you think I’m allowed to have. If you’ll take a moment, **gobear** , you’ll note that **threemae** , and not I, brought up the subject of homosexuality and NAMBLA. Nor would I do so. Perhaps my response to your baseless accusation wasn’t the right way to go about it, but nobody posting here is that ignorant. It’s accurate to point out that gays and lesbians have been unfairly tarred with a very large brush, and it’s also accurate to point out that asserting anti-Semitism is an integral part of Arab political discourse is unfairly tarring Arabs, and Arab society, with the same overly large brush. Sure, we see a lot of Arab anti-Semitism here because that’s what the news broadcasters show; it’s what gets the high-profile coverage. That doesn’t mean it’s universal, or even fundamental to Arab political discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/188 "2004-05-12T16:50:29Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Why, from speech given by [The Great One](http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/resource/speeches/1983/71983d.htm), of course! Uh huh. And what’s old Halfbrain Wrinklehead’s source? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/189 "2004-05-12T16:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Mr. Nick died because he was a moron. You’re a callous little bastard, **gobear**. Cold. I earnestly believe from what I have read from the BBC and other news stories that Mr. Nick was a humanitarian, probably moreso than anyone involved in this conversation because he actually did something about it. His family describes him traveling home from other third world countries emaciated because he gave away his food. Although his father (and I) disagreed with Mr. Nick, he supported the war because he viewed it as a chance to bring democracy to a nation oppressed horribly. He had experience traveling in war zones and developing countries. Aparently the risk was too much, but the alternative is to sit at home on a comfortable chair in internet message boards talking about horrific this and the inhumanity that. He used what money he had to enter the country, do his job, and then tried to get out. Until he was arrested by Iraqi’s supported by the Coalition and then transferred to a jail run by the coalition so that he missed his flight out of the country. Remember, Iraq was a dramatically different place on March 13th than it is now. That was before the other four contractors were killed and mutillated, before Falluja blew up in regards to Al’ Sadr’s militia. > [@](#): > > You’re not immune from uncocnscious homophobia if your sole tactic is to toss in irrelevant references to homosexuality and NAMBLA to derail the discussion. Being gay does not determine the opinions you think I’m allowed to have. You have made yourself a pretty vocal supporter of gay rights. I, **Olentzero** , and the majority of the SDMB agree with you on that. You’re a member of a group that has been demonized and sterotyped against unfairly by idiots that would rather look at a few egregarious examples than understand that the vast majority of gay people do not support disgusting and idiotic goals like NAMBLA. You’ve also learned nothing. You turn right around and do the same thing to Arabs. You know what, I’m glad that you’re American and not Arab. I’m gad that you’re on my “side.” Because I think you’re the type of self-righteous idiot that views the other "side"as a group of like-minded evil-doers just waiting to fuck you over at every turn. If you were born in the Middle East, I think you’d be a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/190 "2004-05-12T17:00:38Z")
After rereading the articles, it appears that I have misnamed Nick Berg as (First Name) Nick. Instead of Mr. Nick, those should all read Mr. Berg. No disrespect intended. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/191 "2004-05-12T17:03:13Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > WHICH “men and women” are we supposedly condemning? C’mon, name names. Tell us who your opponents in this thread have been condemning for rape, murder, etc. You have been condeming the soldiers and contractors who are “having sex with prisoners, videotaping other people who are raping teenage boys, and beating people to death”. None of the allegations has been proven, nobody has been charged with these crimes. If they did it, condem all you want, however you’ll have to get in line behind me. > [@minty green](#): > > Or maybe you could just develop the common fucking sense that tells the rest of us that having sex with prisoners, videotaping other people who are raping teenage boys, and beating people to death is, like, _wrong_. Even if we don’t know the names, ranks, and serial numbers of the people responsible. Or maybe you could stop trying to claim that I have ever said any of these things is not wrong. You can repeat “Dave says it’s not wrong” until your face falls off, but that dosen’t make it true when Dave has said no such thing, and you cannot point to a post where I did. Who, exactly, is the disingenuous pigfucker here then? Hamlet, you nailed it when you said: > [@](#): > > I can see, in someone’s twisted mind, that the original stuff was “pranks”. Neither you nor I would use that term, but someone would. But referring to rape, beatings, and torture as “pranks” is so far beyond the realm of understanding I cannot even fathom it." I would never refer to rape, sodomy and murder as a “prank”, I can’t imaging how sick in the head someone commiting these crimes would have to be to think of them as pranks to themself. If these allegations are proven, I could never believe that an individual could delude himself enough to consider them pranks. I was refering to the atrocities that we have evidece of at this time, not the allegations of worse which are pending. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/192 "2004-05-12T17:13:18Z")
Anytime you feel like answering my question **Dave**. Will you apply your logic to allegations pre-invasion? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/193 "2004-05-12T17:13:39Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > “And on that day, the rock and the tree will say, ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’” OK, so I took a look around and found that this particular hadith comes from a collection known as [Sahih Bukhari](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html). There are two things of note here: 1. Sahih Bukhari lived and worked _two centuries_ after the death of Muhammad. 2. The very first paragraph on that website describes the ahadith as “The _ **reports** _ of the Prophet’s sayings and deeds”. In other words, the Sahih Bukhari doesn’t seem to be a very reliable source for citing anti-Semitism as a fundamental part of Islam. I have no idea how many more books of ahadith are out there, but if they’re all “reports” of the Prophet’s sayings and deeds, I wouldn’t trust them much either as definitive sources for anything regarding the views of Islam. This is not to say that people don’t use them and interpret them in their own ways for their own purposes (doubtless the men who killed Nick Berg had found something in the ahadith to justify their act) but to point the finger at Islam as being responsible is well nigh groundless. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/194 "2004-05-12T17:15:50Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I would never refer to rape, sodomy and murder as a “prank”, I can’t imaging how sick in the head someone commiting these crimes would have to be to think of them as pranks to themself. If these allegations are proven, I could never believe that an individual could delude himself enough to consider them pranks. I was refering to the atrocities that we have evidece of at this time, not the allegations of worse which are pending. Nope. I still don’t get it. Simply put, did you or did you not know about the allegations of rape, torture, and beatings in those two posts? My interpretation was that you didn’t, because I didn’t want to imagine that you would refer to them as pranks. You used the words “what we’ve seen so far” which, to give you the benefit of the doubt, could mean only the initial, released photographs. It would also explain why you so vehemently requested proof or a retraction. But, if you did know about the allegations, it would be rather foolish (and other adjectives) to consider that someone could refer to them as pranks and to demand proof of something you already knew existed, and then get all snarky when cites are provided. I would rather believe you posted out of lack of information than some other, more vile attribute. So, did you or did you not know about the allegations of rape, beatings, and torture when you dismissed “what we’ve seen so far” as possible just being “pranks.” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/195 "2004-05-12T17:15:54Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You have been condeming the soldiers and contractors who are “having sex with prisoners, videotaping other people who are raping teenage boys, and beating people to death”. None of the allegations has been proven, nobody has been charged with these crimes. If they did it, condem all you want, however you’ll have to get in line behind me. So we’re back to the claim that nothing has happened because nobody has been charged. Even though the people who have actual access to the evidence–you know, that evidence that has been withheld from the public, and which we therefore cannot provide to you in response to your ever-increasing standards of proof–have told the public, both on and off the record, that rape and murder have been committed against prisoners held under U.S. custody. Schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/196 "2004-05-12T17:24:42Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > If, as Shayna said in her last screed, there is credible testemony from eyewitnesses to deeper abuses, (and maybe you have a link to a transcript of this testimony? Yes? No? Something other than hearsay “Well, someone else said XXX”)I would expect charges to be brought. Good g-d, you’re thick! Make fun of my bolding and italicizing and underlining to your heart’s content, but obviously you need a fucking map drawn or you’ll continue to weasel out of what’s been presented to you over and over again in this very thread. > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/07/iraq.abuse.main/](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/07/iraq.abuse.main/) > > The embattled defense secretary [Donald Rumsfeld] fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he **testified** [to the Senate Armed Services Committee] about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. > > \ > > **Charges have been brought** against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue. > > \ > > The American public needs to understand we’re talking about **rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience** ," Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters **after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee**. And the transcript of the hearing can be found [here](http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2502), where you will see that Rumsfeld is quoted correctly in the articles, as he states: > [@](#): > > RUMSFELD: First, beyond abuse of prisoners, there are other photos that depict incidents of **physical violence toward prisoners** , acts that can only be described as **blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman**. > > RUMSFELD: Second, there are many more photographs, and indeed some videos. Congress and the American people and the rest of the world need to know this. > > In addition, **the photos give these incidents a vividness, indeed a horror** , in the eyes of the world. Seeing as how one could hardly call merely placing hoods on guys or stacking them up in a naked pyramid as **physical violence, blatantly sadistic, cruel, inhuman** or **vividly horrifying** , you will just have to take the word of Senator Graham when he says, after seeing the evidence and hearing the testimony, that they’re talking about **rape** and **murder**. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/197 "2004-05-12T17:31:58Z")
If Berg died because he was naive, then it was because he thought he was going into an Iraq that should have been: an Iraq that could have been without a completely botched, undermanned, underexecuted occupation. An Iraq that might have been if we had killed Zaqawri when we had the chance. Or not just tossed out all the plans and expert advice on how to do things. Or botched the international lead up to war we needed to give it legitimacy. Berg sounds like a true humanitarian who went to Iraq hoping to help heal a wounded country. But when he got there, he didn’t find what he was looking for: he found a chaotic police state that ended him up in jail (possibly illegally) and was so unlike what he had expected that he was planning on leaving as soon as possible. Oh, and by the way, the abuses at Abu Ghraib may have broken in the U.S. only recently. But they were widely rumored and talked about among Iraqis. Why do you think that the prison was one of the most attacked sites in the entire country? But let’s not do the terrorists’ work for them, like Jonah Goldberg does, in giving creedence to the idea that Al Qaeda needed any excuse to kill an American citizen. When regular Iraqis turn their backs on us even more, or do terrible deeds of revenge, then we can blame Abu Ghraib. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/198 "2004-05-12T17:36:24Z")
Is anyone going to post the link or just keep referring to it (like all the news sites) without actually telling anyone where it is. I can sort of understand NOT posting a link, but it is a bit annoying for every news source to refer to a militant muslim website without giving a URL, then to read the SDMB with everyone suggesting they’ve seen it but not posting a URL. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/199 "2004-05-12T17:42:44Z")
I for one have no desire to see it, but I’ve heard you can find it on [salon.com](http://salon.com) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded-in-iraq-video/244662/200 "2004-05-12T17:44:45Z")
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