# American Beheaded **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677 "2004-05-11T19:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/1 "2004-05-11T19:38:07Z")
So, appearently an American was beheaded today on TV. Don’t see a thread on this as yet (big shock), so thought I’d start one. I’m sure people are dieing to say that he deserved it, or that what can the US expect, or that this equates to what was done in the recent prison scandal…or conversely that the Arabs are sub-human animals, blah blah blah. Well, here’s your forum for either case (or, if someone wants to shock me, some more moderate stance in the middle somewhere). Anyway, here is the link on [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/berg.family.ap/index.html) > [@CNN](#): > > A Web site linked to al Qaeda showed video today of the apparent beheading of a man who identified himself as Nicholas Berg and said he was an American. His captors said the United States refused to exchange him for prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison. For debate (though I’m sure it will go wildly off tangent): 1. Were the terrorists justified in this public execution of an American contractor? 2. What should the US do about this, if anything? 3. Does this put some perspective on the US’s recent actions with reguards to the prison scandal (i.e. pretty much all the details have come out, we are taking steps to punish the guilty and correct the problem, even as bad as it was, no one died or was executed publicly, etc) or no? 4. Does anyone even care about this at all? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/2 "2004-05-11T19:55:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > For debate (though I’m sure it will go wildly off tangent): -XT 1. Were the terrorists justified in this public execution of an American contractor? No. 2. What should the US do about this, if anything? They should treat their prisoners well and follow the Geneva convention. They will probably shoot up a few villages in reprisal. 3. Does this put some perspective on the US’s recent actions with reguards to the prison scandal (i.e. pretty much all the details have come out, we are taking steps to punish the guilty and correct the problem, even as bad as it was, no one died or was executed publicly, etc) or no? The terrorists are using it as a nice excuse to make scandalous executions. I don’t think there is a direct relation. Might be for the Iraqi commoner. 4. Does anyone even care about this at all? I care… the poor sod was just looking for some good money. The same way most Iraqis are just going about their daily lives. Other effects ? It will probably disgust americans and distract them from the prison abuse… so it was a bad move on the terrorists part. It shows how things in Iraq are tending towards more violence and useless bloodshed… ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/3 "2004-05-11T20:02:35Z")
1. No. Not Al Quaeda ones. Iraqi patriots, often named terrorists in propaganda to fool the gullible American public, doing so would be slightly less unjustifiable since they are fighting an overwhelming invading force and have to resort to such tactics. They would have to preclude torture and focus on mercenaries and soldiers to be justified IMO. 2. Try, like Spain, catch the folks who actually did it. On gunboards today, war crimes was the common response (widespread genocide and torture in retaliation). As a stalwart supporter of gunrights, I find the nutcases on those boards are as bad as leftwing nuts on this one. 3. IIRC there was at least one murder. If we commit war crimes, then we have little credibility bitching about others committing them. 4. I care. It brings out the bigoted, genocidal, torture supporting manias out in far too many people. It’s not a healthy feeling for folks to have, and it doesn’t help solve anything. I’ve seen a videotape of a live beheading of a live Russian soldier in Chechnya and a dead Serb in Bosnia, and it’s horrendous. But honestly the US torture stuff seems more traumatic. Like strapping a POW to the hood of a military vehicle to transport him leaving him with 3mos. of hospital time to recover from severe burns or the beating deaths of Iraqis by US troops. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/4 "2004-05-11T20:05:00Z")
This was touched on today in the \*\*Is Bush or most Americans aware of how hated we are ?? \*\* thread, but I agree it is deserving of it’s own. I’m going to copy my response from there: AQ & the Iraqi terrorist had the perfect opportunity to take the high road in relation to world opinion considering the quagmire the US is in over treatment of Iraqi prisoners. However, AQ does not concern itself with world opinion. Their goals are termination of free societies and they are fueled by outright hate (IMHO). We must be careful not to use a broad paint brush in painting all Iraqi citizens as having the same opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/5 "2004-05-11T20:07:05Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > This was touched on today in the \*\*Is Bush or most Americans aware of how hated we are ?? \*\* thread, but I agree it is deserving of it’s own. > > AQ & the Iraqi terrorist had the perfect opportunity to take the high road in relation to world opinion considering the quagmire the US is in over treatment of Iraqi prisoners. However, AQ does not concern itself with world opinion. Sadly Americans don’t seem to care about World Opinion either… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/6 "2004-05-11T20:07:20Z")
I pretty much agree with Rashak. However, my understanding (imperfect, no cites right now) is that people have absolutely died in Abu. I’m reading the New Yorker article, and at least one is described right up front. Franken was saying that something like 10 have been identified so far, 6 “justifiable homicides”, 2 plain vanilla homicides, and the rest still under investigation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/7 "2004-05-11T20:09:50Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > They should treat their prisoners well and follow the Geneva convention. They will probably shoot up a few villages in reprisal. As far as I know, we ARE (generally) following the Geneva Convention. The folks responsible for the acts at the prison are being punished (as they should be) and there is no attempt (that I’m aware of) to cover all this up. I seriously doubt that the US will go on a hunting expedition and ‘shoot up a few villages in reprisal’. I’d be shocked if this happened…and my guess is, you would be too. Its a good sound bite, but I doubt you REALLY think that the US will fly off the handle and napalm a few villages for the hell of it because of this. I’m not sure what following the Geneva Convention would have gotten us here though. Are you saying that, if the US had of never abused those prisoners, that AQ wouldn’t have executed this (or some other) American? They certainly didn’t shy from killing all those civilians in the WTC or in those planes. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > The terrorists are using it as a nice excuse to make scandalous executions. I don’t think there is a direct relation. Might be for the Iraqi commoner. Agreed…its an excuse, just like Saddam was an excuse for the US to invade in the first place (IMO). I think they just wanted to shock the US and make a statement by this execution. Perhaps they feel it will have some effect on a wavering public (if they in fact perceive that the public is wavering), or perhaps they think to cow us. Who knows? > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I care… the poor sod was just looking for some good money. The same way most Iraqis are just going about their daily lives. Ya, I feel pretty bad for the mans family. He was only 26 and as far as I can tell, just there to install communications and telecommunications equipment for the rebuilding of the Iraqi infrastructure damaged in the war. Pretty much the same job I used to do. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Other effects ? It will probably disgust americans and distract them from the prison abuse… so it was a bad move on the terrorists part. It shows how things in Iraq are tending towards more violence and useless bloodshed… Not sure if it will ‘distract them from the prison abuse’ thing, but its sure to piss some off, and disgust others. I agree, the terrorists probably didn’t do themselves any favors by broadcasting this thing, except maybe with their target audiance in the Arab world. Someone who is knowledge-able about that side could maybe speak as to how this will be received in the Arab world (maybe Tam will drop by). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/8 "2004-05-11T20:14:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > … 4) Does anyone even care about this at all?-XT I think Nick Berg, God bless him, was thinking the worst these “hooded” guards were going to do was take a nude picture of him with a leash around his neck … :mad: They will probably be dancing in the streets too, like after 9/11 … :mad: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/9 "2004-05-11T20:16:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As far as I know, we ARE (generally) following the Geneva Convention. The folks responsible for the acts at the prison are being punished (as they should be) and there is no attempt (that I’m aware of) to cover all this up. > > I seriously doubt that the US will go on a hunting expedition and ‘shoot up a few villages in reprisal’. I’d be shocked if this happened…and my guess is, you would be too. Its a good sound bite, but I doubt you REALLY think that the US will fly off the handle and napalm a few villages for the hell of it because of this. > > …except maybe with their target audiance in the Arab world. Someone who is knowledge-able about that side could maybe speak as to how this will be received in the Arab world (maybe Tam will drop by). > -XT ``` Beheading is reserved for murderers and serious crimes no ? Any Muslims to give us the "symbolic" meanings ? As for "revenge"... after the Fallujah body burnings we saw 2 cities surrounded and a A-130 (number right ?) spreading bullets into them. Hardly "high tech" shooting from that over armed hercules is it ? There has been a tendency to increase military operations after helis are shot down or abuses against americans reported. Might be media "circus"... but soldiers on the ground certainly have debts to settle when these things happen ? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/10 "2004-05-11T20:21:24Z")
In any case, if this is true (and it seems to be so since there seems to be a videotaping, which I am not going to watch, thank you) there is no excuse for those commiting such a barbaric crime. I also agree that they aren’t doing the Iraqi people a service with this and I don’t think they can count on much applaud from the Iraqi population, some lunatical exceptions put aside. I’ve heard among others that they seem to scream"Allahu Akbar" while murdering a human being. I don’t know where they get the idea that God would be oh so pleased to hear His name mentioned on this. What drives such lunatics to mention the name of God while comitting the most horrendous crimes? As for what the victim did there: I read that he was looking for a job. I truly don’t know what such a person wants to find in a country occupied by his own nation’s army… I think one can safely say that these days undertaking such an adventure in Iraq is at the very least reckless and ignorant. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/11 "2004-05-11T20:28:01Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Sadly Americans don’t seem to care about World Opinion either… As I have previously stated…although I wasn’t sad about it. Let’s just see how much global outrage and demands for apologies come forth in response to the poor contractor’s horrible death (don’t hold your breath). ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/12 "2004-05-11T20:46:52Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > As for “revenge”… after the Fallujah body burnings we saw 2 cities surrounded and a A-130 (number right ?) spreading bullets into them. Hardly “high tech” shooting from that over armed hercules is it ? That’s A_C_-130, a weapon designed to apply lots of firepower to a small area. Not exactly a precision weapon, but near-enough. If they’d wanted to create widespread damage, lots of large conventional bombs would’ve done the job. AFAIK, the AC-130 is primarily used to attack specific targets, rather than to destroy lots of stuff all at once. I doubt they would be using this asset unless they had specific knowledge that a high-value objective was at ground zero of their attack. Otherwise, they would have used bombs or artillery. [/hijack] –SSgtBaloo ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/13 "2004-05-11T21:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t see a thread on this as yet (big shock), so thought I’d start one. **I’m sure people are dieing to say that he deserved it** , or that what can the US expect, or that this equates to what was done in the recent prison scandal…or conversely that the Arabs are sub-human animals, blah blah blah. Well, here’s your forum for either case ( **or, if someone wants to shock me, some more moderate stance** in the middle somewhere). > > 1. Were the terrorists justified in this public execution of an American contractor? > > 2. Does anyone even care about this at all? You know xtisme, assuming your OP was even sincere in the first place, you’d do well not to try and start a debate by basically insulting the boards and most posters here with your implications about what we care about, what our opinions will be, etc. I make a habit of not participating in threads with such OPs, and we are already discussing this subject in a more reasonable fashion elsewhere without so many pointed “wife-beater” questions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/14 "2004-05-11T21:12:44Z")
Aldebaran, could you give us your take on how this will be received in the Arab world generally? Also, since no one has yet called me on it, I’ll call myself on it. My point number 4 was pretty snippy, and I retract it. God knows what I was thinking. So, instead, lets reset the OP and make point number 4 what I’m asking Aldebaran for. Namely, what reaction will this get in the Arab world? Lets also ask what reaction this will have in the world at large (if any). -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/15 "2004-05-11T21:24:14Z")
No idea whats up with the board today…it took me 30 min. of waiting to submit my last reply. Anyone else having a hard time getting through? Anyway, I see someone HAS called me on my OP. > [@Apos](#): > > You know xtisme, assuming your OP was even sincere in the first place, you’d do well not to try and start a debate by basically insulting the boards and most posters here with your implications about what we care about, what our opinions will be, etc. I make a habit of not participating in threads with such OPs, and we are already discussing this subject in a more reasonable fashion elsewhere without so many pointed “wife-beater” questions. Well Apos, after being on this board for a while, and seeing the ranting and raving, I sometimes tend to fly off the handle myself. All the hand waving and flames tends to get to me after a while and I just go off. As to insulting ‘the board’, well, I don’t feel like I was insulting the board as a whole, but I do admit I was a bit snippy. Retracting the snippy parts, I still think this is a decent discussion. As to you participating in this OP or not, suit yourself on that score. I’ll try and muddle through somehow without you if thats your decision. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/16 "2004-05-11T21:28:08Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > … I think one can safely say that these days undertaking such an adventure in Iraq is at the very least reckless and ignorant. Salaam. A So Nick Berg, 26, from Pennsylvania was responsible for his own head being cutting off with 7 or 8 cuts by these animals because he was “ignorant.” You really can’t be serious … :smack: ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/17 "2004-05-11T21:31:04Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > As I have previously stated…although I wasn’t sad about it. > > Let’s just see how much global outrage and demands for apologies come forth in response to the poor contractor’s horrible death (don’t hold your breath). Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I’m going to ask al Qaeda to apologize because I think that the USA should apologize for the treatment of prisoners. In case you missed it, the people that abused the prisoners in Iraq were acting in the name of the United States government, regardless of whether the government approved of those specific actions. What government is al Qaeda acting in the name of so that we may ask that government for an apology? If you really expect people around the world to demand an apology for the beheading, you don’t really understand the difference between a sovereign state and a group of murdering outlaws. > [@xtisme](#): > > As far as I know, we ARE (generally) following the Geneva Convention. The folks responsible for the acts at the prison are being punished (as they should be) and there is no attempt (that I’m aware of) to cover all this up. Nope. “Disappearing” and killing people is not allowed by the Geneva Convention as far as I know. > [@](#): > > Although some of those held by the military in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo have had visits by the International Committee of the Red Cross, some of the CIA’s detainees have, in effect, disappeared, according to interviews with former and current national security officials and to the Army’s report of abuses at Abu Ghraib. > > The CIA’s “ghost detainees,” as they were called by members of the 800th MP Brigade, were routinely held by the soldier-guards at Abu Ghraib “without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention,” the report says. These phantom captives were “moved around within the facility to hide them” from Red Cross teams, a tactic that was “deceptive, contrary to Army doctrine, and in violation of international law.” > > CIA employees are under investigation by the Justice Department and the CIA inspector general’s office in connection with the death of three captives in the past six months, two who died while under interrogation in Iraq, and a third who was being questioned by a CIA contract interrogator in Afghanistan. A CIA spokesman said the hiding of detainees was inappropriate. He declined to comment further. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15981-2004May10.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15981-2004May10.html) To answer your OP questions: 1. No, of course it was not justified. It was disgusting, revolting, and I can’t think of anything that would justify a killing like that. 2. Ideally, they should prosecute the criminals in a court of law. That will never happen, though. The FBI is supposedly going to investigate, but considering that their is basically no law in Iraq right now, what good will it do? 3. You are wrong on your claims for number three, so I can’t really answer. People did die in the prison, some of the deaths may have been murder, and all the details have not come out. Did you forget that Rumsfeld himself has said there are details and photos that have not been released? 4. I care in that it was a horrible way to die, the man’s family has to deal with it, it will cause more strife and violence in Iraq, and I hate it when almost anyone dies. I don’t attribute it much more significance than that, though. It don’t think it will change the way most Iraqis feel, most Americans feel, or most terrorists feel though it may provoke more confrontation between those groups. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/18 "2004-05-11T21:31:55Z")
Well at least one of the ‘hooded’ individuals seems to be identified. Good. [http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1…=top\_world\_news](http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a49VYhalHH9Y&refer=top_world_news) > [@](#): > > **…The news service said the Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearing house for al-Qaeda and extremist Islamic group statements, and the video bore the title ``Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American,’’ AP said. The U.S. says Jordanian Zarqawi, believed to be operating in Iraq, is affiliated with the terrorist group al-Qaeda. He is wanted in connection with the murder of a U.S. aid official in Jordan…** ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/19 "2004-05-11T21:38:31Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > So Nick Berg, 26, from Pennsylvania was responsible for his own head being cutting off with 7 or 8 cuts by these animals because he was “ignorant.” You really can’t be serious … :smack: I thought that it was Aldebaran that was supposed to be dyslexic. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/20 "2004-05-11T21:39:34Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > So Nick Berg, 26, from Pennsylvania was responsible for his own head being cutting off with 7 or 8 cuts by these animals because he was “ignorant.” You really can’t be serious … :smack: Adlebaran said nothing even remotely resembling this. In fact, nearly his entire response was an admonishment to the people who committed this crime. The fact that this guy was ignorant and reckless are also very true. Nobody is even trying to _imply_ that he deserved it, though . [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677.md?page=2)