# American Beheaded **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677 "2004-05-11T19:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/61 "2004-05-12T16:11:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently three times in 2002 and early 2003 the Pentagon made plans to extirpate his faction which was training in a camp inside the northern no-fly zone. All such plans were nixed by the NSC. We can only speculate on the motives for this, but almost certainly a worry that it would postpone or complicate the all important we-must-invade-in-time-for-the-election-season drive to Iraq was involved somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/62 "2004-05-12T16:21:14Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > Please cite where Nick Berg was ignorant, please! I just saw a live local TV broadcast about Nick from his HS. His teacher was very complimentary about his intelligence, personality and abilities, including the number of instruments he could play. He was a real human being … where do you come off from? > [@](#): > > His father previously had said his son “just really wanted to be part of something that was important. He supported the administration’s being in Iraq, he supported everything they were doing and he wanted to help in a positive way by building, rather than breaking down.” Source: [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html) Well, Berg was not in the military and was not sent to Iraq by the military. Berg was not working for a company and sent to Iraq by a company. Berg went to Iraq on his own volition with no job or job offer. He went there looking for work. He went in December and returned in February. He went back to Iraq in March, again looking for work. > [@](#): > > A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg was in Iraq “of his own accord” and had been advised to leave Iraq but refused. The official refused to elaborate but promised more information later Wednesday. > > … > > Friends and family of Berg said he was a “free spirit” who wanted to help others - working in Ghana, in one example - and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology. They said he supported the Iraqi war and the Bush administration. Source: [http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040512/D82H38V80.html](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040512/D82H38V80.html) With all due respect to his family and friends concerning this horrific act, but he sure sounds ignorant to me. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/63 "2004-05-12T16:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Monstro: > The US has its share of barbaric subhumans too. Right-on, Monstro, it is just so sad that some of these subhumans who apologize for the unspeakable actions of Muslim fanatics have posted right here on this board. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/64 "2004-05-12T16:23:45Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Right-on, Monstro, it is just so sad that some of these subhumans who apologize for the unspeakable actions of Muslim fanatics have posted right here on this board. You want to come up with some cites for that, sparky? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/65 "2004-05-12T16:31:33Z")
I didn’t follow the boards for some time, but was there the same reaction in the USA (and on this website, for example) when the Italian hostage was killed during the siege of Falluja? My impression is that this whole discussion turns around the fact that this victiom was 1. US citizen 2. The fact that according the reports he was killed by cutting his head off. That makes it in the eyes of those who hear about it looking as much more horrible, because it is in my opinion perceived as denigrating the human dignity to be slaughtered like a sheep. As for those who declare with so much confidence that there was nothing of the king done to the prisoners in Iraq: Sorry, but being beaten to death takes in general hours of pain and suffering. I also read an interview regarding an Iraqy who died because of the beatings he had to undergo. He died days after he was “released” (apparently there were no charges against him). Such are other stories that - of course - seem to be waiting to be independently verified. In any case: To me it seems to be without doubt that such - often repeated - sessions of beatings can result in internal bleadings that cause a slow and very painful death. When someone slits your throat, in my opinion you die within a very short time and you loose conscious by the loss of blood even before death occures. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/66 "2004-05-12T16:35:58Z")
I know some here have seen the entire video. I’m not going to watch the video but I have wonder if this is true. Can the monsters who committed this murder be heard laughing after they beheaded Berg? I think the question has some merit since it tells us more about the mindset, here at least, and how to approach that thinking - ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/67 "2004-05-12T17:29:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …if someone wants to shock me, some more moderate stance… Beheading videos are extremely rare. There’s one of Russian soldier, one of Perle and now this one. That is less incidents than terrorist mass-slaughter (US embassies, WTC, Istanbul, Madrid). Not so long ago there was a manhunt in California for a killer that cut-off women’s heads. During this time a local newspaper published a list of the latest unsolved murders only of women that involved decapitation, only in the area of Western Sierra foothills. I believe there were around ten. We have our own head-cutting criminals. The only difference between those decapitations and AlQ ones is the public display. But then there is no war going on in Western Sierra foothills. [ol] [li]For terrorism there is no justification.[/li][li]US shouldn’t do anything new. We are hunting Zarkawi already. When we catch him, we can ask him about this one, too; not that it’s going to make any difference for the verdict.[/li][li]This puts nothing into perspective, especially Abu Ghraib. The proper perspective on Abu Ghraib can be attained by considering penal institutions of Saddam and other Arab and Moslem countries.[/li][li]While we are talking about all this, ‘Aldebaran’ is still on the outside of a straightjacket.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/68 "2004-05-12T17:57:03Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The proper perspective on Abu Ghraib can be attained by considering penal institutions of Saddam and other Arab and Moslem countries. > [/list] So that’s the standard you set ?? As long as there is still someone meaner and a bigger bastard than you you can keep wearing the white hat, pretending you’re the good guy? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/69 "2004-05-12T18:01:43Z")
> [@Milium](#): > > Right-on, Monstro, it is just so sad that some of these subhumans who apologize for the unspeakable actions of Muslim fanatics have posted right here on this board. Who here has apologized for Al-Queda? I can cite a couple of posters who continue to cling to the belief that Americans have done no wrong over in Iraq. I can’t think of a single poster who doesn’t think Al-Queda members are crazy folks blinded by hatred and bloodlust. Maybe you can help me. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/70 "2004-05-12T19:35:39Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Right-on, Monstro, it is just so sad that some of these subhumans who apologize for the unspeakable actions of Muslim fanatics have posted right here on this board. > > > [@TwistofFate](#): > > > > You want to come up with some cites for that, sparky? Cites? From **Milum**? Why, that would be a sign of _weakness_! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/71 "2004-05-12T20:14:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So that’s the standard you set ?? > As long as there is still someone meaner and a bigger bastard than you you can keep wearing the white hat, pretending you’re the good guy? The question was the one about proper perspective. It was not about the standard I set, nor was it about white hats or good guys. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/72 "2004-05-12T23:24:27Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > > [@Latro](#): > > > > So that’s the standard you set ?? > > As long as there is still someone meaner and a bigger bastard than you you can keep wearing the white hat, pretending you’re the good guy? > > The question was the one about proper perspective. It was not about the standard I set, nor was it about white hats or good guys. Doesn’t ‘perspecitve’ in this sense mean the mental view of the totality of an issue, or maybe the comparative relation of one action with another. That sounds like the use of one action to set the norm to which others are compared, which sounds like a standard to me. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/73 "2004-05-13T00:34:57Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Doesn’t ‘perspecitve’ in this sense mean the mental view of the totality of an issue, or maybe the comparative relation of one action with another. That sounds like the use of one action to set the norm to which others are compared, which sounds like a standard to me. OP question 3 was whether AlQ murder provides a perspective on US MPs actions in Abu Ghraib prison, to which my answer was that it does not. To obtain perspective on a penal institution it is necessary to compare it with other penal institutions in the world. Regarding standards, the review of all penal institutions in the world will present a dismal picture in need of improvement practically everywhere, so the standard has to be sought on the outside. Therefore saying that US jail guards are morally superior to Middle East jail guards shouldn’t be interpreted as setting the standard. If you want to know my standard, it is no jails and no jail guards anywhere in the world. I don’t expect to see it fulfilled in my lifetime, however. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/74 "2004-05-13T01:10:51Z")
What were there, 5 killers in that video? I believe one of the questions was, “What should the US do?” or something similar… Here’s my suggestion: WHEN we find those five killers, we execute 4 of them… …with bullets dipped in pig’s blood. The fifth guy? _We let him go._ So he can tell the REST of them that our military uses the blood of pigs to kill our enemies… I wonder how quickly the attacks would stop. Naturally, I refer to the types of folks depicted in the video, NOT civilians… I wonder if I’ll get pitted for this. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/75 "2004-05-13T01:22:15Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > WHEN we find those five killers, I should hope the Iraqis would have a trial, convict and execute them. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/76 "2004-05-13T01:36:41Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > The fifth guy? _We let him go._ So he can tell the REST of them that our military uses the blood of pigs to kill our enemies… > I wonder how quickly the attacks would stop. Probably no more quickly than the U.S. will stop attacking terrorists, now that we’ve learned that terrorists cut the heads off of their enemies. If these guys were as easily frightened as you imply, we would’ve finished them off a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/77 "2004-05-13T02:01:35Z")
Let’s go through what we know. We have an American citizen wandering through a war zone. He wasn’t there doing any specific thing. He’s picked up by the Iraqi police. His family says he was turned over to the American authorities but the CPA denies it. _Why would anyone with no business being in a war zone be allowed to stay?_ He’s questioned at least three times by the FBI. His family sues to have him released. He’s released the next day even though the Iraqi’s were holding him. He spends four nights in a cheap hotel. Then apparently he disappears. No notice in the news. Next thing you know he is apparently beheaded. I watched the video. He didn’t struggle and there was no blood at all. Can this be possible? I don’t know about anyone else…but if you try to cut my head off…I’m going to struggle like hell. But he didn’t. QED? Any docs in the house? Can you cut a mans head off and have no blood? How hard is it to cut a man’s head off with a knife? Were they cutting off the head of a man who was already dead? It smells to high heaven. Have at it…tell me I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/78 "2004-05-13T02:07:10Z")
When did al queada start putting their prisoners in orange jumpsuits? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/79 "2004-05-13T02:15:22Z")
This is your most out there tin foil hat conspiricy yet, reeder. I’m actually in awe at the moment. So, I assume you think Bush is behind it all, correct? And he got, what, AQ to post it on an Arab website? Or maybe he tricked them into posting it on the site? I’m sure money is involved in this somehow? Maybe they get the credit card number and shoe size of everyone who logs onto the site? Only piece I don’t get is, how do the orange jump suits factor in… :rolleyes: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677/80 "2004-05-13T02:23:41Z")
You know…I searched all through my post…I didn’t find Bushco mentioned at all. I do notice you didn’t address my points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-beheaded/244677.md?page=5)