# American Capitalism at its finest (Hershey walkout) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727 "2011-08-31T05:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/61 "2011-09-01T15:46:46Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] They PAID $3000 or more for this. [/QUOTE] They paid $3000-6000 to travel to the US, get a temporary job (with their room and board paid for) and some experience working in the US (plus the experience of actually coming to the US), and with some small amount of spending money left over (above what their folk gave them). Is that a good summary of the situation? > [@](#): > > Would you pay $3000 to travel to another country to make a profit of $840 for three months of work? $10/day? After you pay for room and board what are you left with? It depends. If I had plans to work in, say, Japan, and wanted to gain some actual experience working and living in Japan, then I might be interested in something like this, yes. Especially if my folks or family had the money to send me. > [@](#): > > This is not some whiny little silver spoon stuck in their ass suburban kid bitching about working at McDonalds. No, it’s whiny foreign exchange students with little silver spoons in their mouths bitching about having to come to the US and do hard, menial labor…something they probably don’t have to do at home. At least that’s my take on the story. If it’s substantially wrong, feel free to point out why. I’ll say that any family in the countries listed these folks were coming from who could afford $3000-6000 to send their son or daughter over here is not exactly going to be listed as ‘poor’ in their respective countries. That’s a lot of money to for a family in, say, India, to spend on something like this. > [@](#): > > I am willing to bet these young people could have found work packing boxes where they came from without the trouble of applying for visas and digging up money and traveling around the world to put candy into boxes. But then they wouldn’t have gotten the experience of living and working in the US. I’m willing to bet that back home, none of these kids WOULD have been doing that sort of work, since their families obviously had at least $3000-6000 in disposable income to send their kids to the US on this initiative. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/62 "2011-09-01T15:49:42Z")
Calling all capitalistic profit “exploitation” is like calling passively taking advantage of racial discrimination “racism”. While it might (or might not!) make sense to use non-standard meanings of these plain English words within your little subset of academia, the pejorative uses of these words are so overwhelming that it does not advance the discussion to insist on the common use of them in discussions with those who don’t agree that the plain English words should be redefined. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/63 "2011-09-01T15:51:00Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > All that, and you still neglected to take into consideration what value the owners bring to the equation. What the workers (non-owners) produce is not equal to the final value of the product. The owner adds additional value, and takes his payment in the form of profit. > > I fail to see the exploitation. You apparently didn’t understand a word that i wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/64 "2011-09-01T15:55:34Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You apparently didn’t understand a word that i wrote. I understood every word. You assumed that the workers are solely responsible for the value of the finished product, which is completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/65 "2011-09-01T15:58:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Calling all capitalistic profit “exploitation” is like calling passively taking advantage of racial discrimination “racism”. While it might (or might not!) make sense to use non-standard meanings of these plain English words within your little subset of academia, the pejorative uses of these words are so overwhelming that it does not advance the discussion to insist on the common use of them in discussions with those who don’t agree that the plain English words should be redefined. I think you’re right about this. I wouldn’t have used the word “exploitation” in the way that **An Arky** did, precisely for the reasons you give here. But when someone takes the time to actually explain the more specific, technical use of the term, and the ways in which it differs from the general, conversational use (as both **An Arky** and i did), then anyone who continues to argue as if the word’s _only_ meaning is the general one just makes a dunce of himself. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/66 "2011-09-01T16:00:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Hershey’s chocolate sucks, and that definitely deserves a pit thread. This though…I’m just not able to get up any sort of outrage on this one. Meh. > > -XT I pretty much agree… if these foreigners were going to come to America to do something productive for a few months, WHY would they choose to make shitty, shitty chocolate that no one likes? Is it even actually meet the defined requirements of chocolate anymore? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/67 "2011-09-01T16:00:51Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I understood every word. You assumed that the workers are solely responsible for the value of the finished product, which is completely wrong. You still apparently don’t get the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/68 "2011-09-01T16:05:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You still apparently don’t get the argument. I understand perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/69 "2011-09-01T16:06:22Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Your assertion is that the town of Palmyra and the plant itself, consists almost entirely of (ahem) “Foreigners”? And this is the major complaint that the students have? Interesting. It’s not my contention. According to this article: > [@](#): > > The foreign workers are primarily college students who signed up — and paid for — a three-month cultural exchange program. The program is designed to bring them to the United States, where they will work in and around Americans. > > Instead, the students contend they are working in Exel warehouses among other foreign workers with little or no contact with Americans. > > Stephen Boykewich is a spokesman for the National Guestworker Alliance, which helped the students organize the protest. > > “The joke is the cultural exchange is between the Turks and the Moldovians,” he said. > **[Foreign guestworkers, union members protesting Hershey Co. policies for...](https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2011/08/foreign_guestworkers_union_off.html)** > > The students, who are working in the United States through the J1 Visa program, are asking the company to review its policies for foreign workers. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/70 "2011-09-01T16:08:29Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I understand perfectly. If you did, you wouldn’t have said: “You assumed that the workers are solely responsible for the value of the finished product, which is completely wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/71 "2011-09-01T16:10:03Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It’s not my contention. According to this article: > [Foreign guestworkers, union members protesting Hershey Co. policies for foreign workers - pennlive.com](http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/08/foreign_guestworkers_union_off.html) Look at the program links I posted above. They DO NOT PROMISE CULTURAL EDUCATION PROGRAMS. They promise you an entry-level job (likely at minimum wage), a place to stay, health insurance, and some time to travel. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/72 "2011-09-01T16:11:05Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you did, you wouldn’t have said: “You assumed that the workers are solely responsible for the value of the finished product, which is completely wrong.” Are you going to debate the issue and tell me how I’m wrong, or continue to argue like my 2-year-old daughter? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/73 "2011-09-01T16:18:29Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I pretty much agree… if these foreigners were going to come to America to do something productive for a few months, WHY would they choose to make shitty, shitty chocolate that no one likes? Is it even actually meet the defined requirements of chocolate anymore? That’s the whole point. They did \*not \*choose that. Nobody told them back home that they would be packaging shit on the night shift. They signed up for a cultural exchange program, which promptly dumped them on a shady temp agency, who sold them to Hershey as cheap labour. Nobody asked their input on any of this. [QUOTE=xtisme] They paid $3000-6000 to travel to the US, get a temporary job (with their room and board paid for) and some experience working in the US (plus the experience of actually coming to the US), and with some small amount of spending money left over (above what their folk gave them). Is that a good summary of the situation? [/QUOTE] Actually, they have to pay rent. Which is what sparked the protest in the first place when they figured out the renter was gouging them, exploiting the fact that a) they don’t know the local housing market and b) they can’t just leave. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/74 "2011-09-01T16:19:58Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Look at the program links I posted above. They DO NOT PROMISE CULTURAL EDUCATION PROGRAMS. They promise you an entry-level job (likely at minimum wage), a place to stay, health insurance, and some time to travel. Full stop. Why don’t you look at your own program links. It’s deceptive as fuck, and it sure as hell is billed as an American adventure and cultural exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/75 "2011-09-01T16:23:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s the whole point. They did \*not \*choose that. Nobody told them back home that they would be packaging shit on the night shift. They signed up for a cultural exchange program, which promptly dumped them on a shady temp agency, who sold them to Hershey as cheap labour. Nobody asked their input on any of this. > . This is simply not correct. The Program offers them their choice of jobs. They can also choose their physical location. The participants are free to take the offers or leave them or find their own jobs if they want. The NYT article is clear, that the Hershey exchange students knew they would be working in a Hershey factory before they arrived in the U.S. They could have chosen to work at Cedar Point, or at the [Plattekill, NY Travel Plaza](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/388/rest-stop), or at any of hundreds of geographically distributed minimum wage positions. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/76 "2011-09-01T16:31:06Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Why don’t you look at your own program links. It’s deceptive as fuck, and it sure as hell is billed as an American adventure and cultural exchange. Some people, call them crazy, think the opportunity to travel to another country is an adventure and educational in itself. They don’t promise any sort of classes, or trips, or language workshops or anything along those lines. They promise you a chance to work overseas. I used to work at a sleepaway summer camp where we had J-1 visa counsellors (or the early 90s quivalent, their organization was BUNAC). There was always some entitled whiny brat who had the nerve to say that she didn’t expect wooooork on her vacation. Guess what: Taking care of kids at sleepaway camp is a 24 hrs/day job, and we only got 1 day off a week. For the 9 week summer, we made $2200 (1993 dollars) room & board provided. With “room” being a 20x20 canvas topped platform tent you shared with seven 12 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/77 "2011-09-01T16:40:29Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Some people, call them crazy, think the opportunity to travel to another country is an adventure and educational in itself. They don’t promise any sort of classes, or trips, or language workshops or anything along those lines. They promise you a chance to work overseas. Classes? Trips? Workshops? What on earth are you talking about? None of those things are among the students’ and AFL-CIO union members’ complaints. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/78 "2011-09-01T16:49:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Classes? Trips? Workshops? What on earth are you talking about? None of those things are among the students’ and AFL-CIO union members’ complaints. In what way has the program failed to provide what it offered by way of cultural exchange, namely a chance to work in America and the opportunity to travel? The radio show I linked to is interesting. It’s about several J-1 holders who work at a rest stop in upstate NY. There, the difference in summer work experience (with some having regrets while others characterized it as the most fun summer EVER) was entirely due to their own personalities and their efforts to make friends with their coworkers. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/79 "2011-09-01T17:05:35Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > No, because I can do math. Why did they do it? Apparently because they can’t add, or because they seem some value in it, for example, it might be desirable to employers to have worked in the US, as a demonstration of your English skills. Watch the video. One of them is a student in Economics. I presume he can do math. These are not uneducated day-laborers. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727/80 "2011-09-01T17:13:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > They paid $3000-6000 to travel to the US, get a temporary job (with their room and board paid for) and some experience working in the US (plus the experience of actually coming to the US), and with some small amount of spending money left over (above what their folk gave them). Is that a good summary of the situation? No. They are paid minimum wage and they have to pay for their room and board. > [@](#): > > It depends. If I had plans to work in, say, Japan, and wanted to gain some actual experience working and living in Japan, then I might be interested in something like this, yes. Especially if my folks or family had the money to send me. It would be one thing if the program placed them in Wall Street or a hospital which relates to their education. If they were being paid minimum wage but had a chance to experience work related to their field that makes sense. Packing boxes of candy though? I cannot see why anyone would do that in their situation. For $3000-6000 enjoy a trip to the US and travel. You’ll get the culture and practice the language and not from the side of a manufacturing line. > [@](#): > > No, it’s whiny foreign exchange students with little silver spoons in their mouths bitching about having to come to the US and do hard, menial labor…something they probably don’t have to do at home. At least that’s my take on the story. If it’s substantially wrong, feel free to point out why. The video notes that once the students are here they are stuck. They often went into debt to come here. This is not some kids with wealthy families. Wealthy families do not send their kids abroad to work packing boxes of candy. > [@](#): > > I’ll say that any family in the countries listed these folks were coming from who could afford $3000-6000 to send their son or daughter over here is not exactly going to be listed as ‘poor’ in their respective countries. That’s a lot of money to for a family in, say, India, to spend on something like this. You have little basis to say this. Are these kids better off than the average schmo in their country? Probably. Does that make them wealthy? No. > [@](#): > > But then they wouldn’t have gotten the experience of living and working in the US. I’m willing to bet that back home, none of these kids WOULD have been doing that sort of work, since their families obviously had at least $3000-6000 in disposable income to send their kids to the US on this initiative. Again, you do not know that they had $3000 to throw around. As mentioned in the video in the OP they suggest many went into debt. Again, how many actually wealthy kids do you know who do this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-capitalism-at-its-finest-hershey-walkout/594727.md?page=5)