Yer gonna go blind doin’ that.
And I guess this means you have no answer to my post above.
That’s it, cry those bitch tears. I know it hurts that liberal policies wind up being better than the smegma you push, but just let it all out.
The point of my cite/Rand Rover’s response was that the U.S. has a habit of exploiting foreign labor and it isn’t limited to purchasing products made in Asia.
Capitalism isn’t about ethics. Economics works with or without ethics. The effects and consequences of those ethics may be significant socially, or politically, perhaps even morally, but economics isn’t about ethics. It’s just numbers.
Tris
Hmmm, why does this sound so familiar?
“No, no, you misunderstood. You won’t be working the car & bus rides at Hershey Park, you’ll be parking cars in Hershey PA and riding the bus between the lots.”
Anybody got a link to all the happy kids with the cool jobs* that CETUSA is suggesting, but not actually promising, are available? Maybe it’s just me but, I’d think the best answer CETUSA could give to the accusations would be to point to all the happy kids with the cool jobs.
- Acknowledging that even the cool sounding jobs probably turn out to really suck in the end too.
CMC fnord!
If you go to my previous link (CETUSA’s statement) to around page 21-23 of the the document, you will see the INCREDIBLY MISLEADING job offer and job description for working “2nd shift assembler/packer” at the factory.
You will note horribly misleading things as, "fast-paced assembly " “Rent is $395/mo ($395 refundable security deposit)” “spends 100% of the time standing, walking, stooping, bending, or lifting” and “must be able to lift 27kg throughout the shift.”
Sounds like a real bait n’ switch, amirite? How dare they make these poor, innocent children-who-are-actually-old-enough-to-sign-contracts-and-wage-war stand and work for 8 hours exactly as they agreed to do!!!??
I don’t know what you’re talking about “cool” jobs. I never said any of the jobs were anything but crappy. And unless you’re completely naive, all the jobs sound like they suck balls. That’s what entry-level, low-wage, unskilled jobs do. They suck balls and you laugh about it later. I did say that the jobs are no crappier than those commonly done by American citizens over the summers and I stand by that.
By the way, the UK has practically the exact same program (Work and Travel UK). If I go get a job from them, at the same wage rate a citizen would get for the same crap job, am I being exploited as cheap foreign labor too?
It does not pass the smell test to think some kid in a foreign country, a kid with a college degree (or working towards one) in things like medicine or economics (see video linked in the OP) would shell out $3000+ for the “privilege” of stuffing candy into a box on an assembly line at minimum wage for a summer.
What, there are no factories where they live or, at least, closer than the US?
This makes sense to you? As a medical student the thing you would want on your resume to improve your job prospects is “Fudge Packer”? :rolleyes:
I agree students do shitty summer jobs. I did. Most kids do. But generally I was seeking positions related to my field. Yeah I earned minimum wage or less doing shit like stuffing envelopes but it was at a business that related to my professional pursuits and I was able to gain experience just by being there and, occasionally, not being a part of a shitty manual task job.
I am missing where an economics student and a medical student (to name two) were thinking “Fudge Packer” was a good thing to have on a resume.
If they wanted to experience travel and new cultures that $3000+ could have been spent merely traveling.
I suspect that while CETUSA may advertise the real deal on their website (buried on page 21-23) in the countries where the students are drawn do not spell this out. I would be surprised if those details are made available to these kids. There are probably enough middle-men in the process to wholly wash CETUSA from the picture. No one would think to look at that. They are not on the radar…at all.
What you are suggesting is that students in economics and medicine and other disciplines from foreign countries willingly paid $3000 or more to come to the US to put candy in boxes and then to stage a sit-in for…some reason. They knew the deal the WHOLE time or, at the least, were willfully ignorant of what they were getting into. Obviously these kids are functionally retarded or something.
Does that sum up your assessment of what happened here?
Sigh. Page 21-23 of CETUSA’s responds to complaint is where you can see an example of a job offer contract with attached job responsibilities; it has nothing to do with their website. The information is right on the webpage as to what type of jobs are offered, and the contract spells out the job responsibilities clearly. Those job responsibilities are something they would have already agreed to before they ever set foot in the US. I am certain these poor innocent European, college-educated, English-speaking students have absolutely no access to the internet or any information except what some mean ol’ pimp tells them, right?
If any of these students can show they were appreciably mislead about their job responsibilities, or signed a job offer that was in any way fraudulent, I will take everything back. I will publicly apologize to you, Whack-a-mole and also proclaim Rand Rover to be a big doodie head while I’m at it (sorry, RR).
I know this is really hard for you to believe but the UK has the exact same program. Students - you must be enrolled in university to even be eligible – educated Americans even! go to the UK and gladly work as a waitress or barback or hotel maid for the summer – for the chance to do it in England. I know that’s like, super hard for you to understand, but it actually really happens, and people consider it fun and a privilege. Some of the counsellors at my summer camp had Masters degrees and more. Why would they want to spend the summer teaching macrame to suburbanite 8 year olds at roughly $1.69/hr per actual hour worked? Gee, I just don’t know. It’s a mystery. Or maybe they just think it would be a different, interesting thing to do.
sigh the CETUSA fee is $650. That covers health insurance, J-1 processing and ground support in the US. The other “fees” that amount to $3,000 were apparently visa fees in the case of the Chinese student, and also included things like housing security deposit, airfare and travel expenses that have nothing to do with their work program – things they would have to pay anyway to spend a summer abroad.
So the deal is this: you can spend $3,000 for traveling around the US for a month, or, for a fee of $650, you can also get a permit to work for a few months and come out a bit ahead at the end (since you still get a chance to travel for a month).
I can tell you from my own vast experience with summer jobs that being a waitress or bar back or ski lift operator or something is like, a million times more fun than being stuck in a factory all day stuffing boxes as they scream past you on the conveyor belt.
Trust me. A million times more fun.
I never said working in a factory was fun. I believe, jobwise, I characterized it as “crappy.” I said it’s what they agreed to do.
You sound like a lawyer or something.
There is no way these students weren’t duped and ripped off. “Should have read the contract” is no excuse at all. Everyone’s gotten duped and ripped off at some point. Well, maybe that’s okay if it was just a gym membership you can’t get out of, but this is quite a bit different and I can’t believe you are really okay with “read the contract next time, sucker! Miss the paragraph on page 23? Too bad. Back to work, scumbag!”
Seriously did you even look at the example contract? It is 2 pages long and written in ordinary English. The job description is completely clear and to the point that the work is arduous. Since paging through a mostly-unrelated PDF is apparently too much work for you, jump right to here:
http://www.cetusa.org/public/assets/download/38/state-department-response-plus-shs-job-offer.pdf
To see an example job description. Scroll up for the job offer form.
Please share with me what parts you believe would be difficult to understand for anyone with an 8th grade education. Please share with me what parts you believe would lead a reasonable person to expect something other than a boring, physically demanding job.
The students claim they were misled. CETUSA claims all the info was there for them. (cite)
I guess we need more data.
Again, doesn’t pass the smell test for me to suggest the kids, who were studying to be in medicine or economics or what have you, gleefully plopped down a few thousand dollars to pack candy and later decided they wish they had done something else.
It seems to me this is more of a philosophical debate. If you are libertarian minded, it is impossible to be mislead because you signed a contract and if the terms are met, there can by definition be no wrong doing.
I’m all for workers to not be exploited but so far it’s just conjecture that it is too stupid a deal to be the whole story (and I agree), but I would like to hear more of the actual complaints.
The thing that concerns me isn’t whether or not their jobs suck, but that they’re not as able to just split and find another job like someone who already lives here. I think that free will is an important component to a free market, and arrangements like this are not as conducive to that. I know they signed up for it, but not everything is foreseeable.
After some puffery about failing to promote international relations, the DOJ complaint mainly asserts that the conditions of the work, as stated, violate OSHA regulations, and that the housing deductions violate the FLSA. They also feel that telling the students that their visa will expire if they stop working is a form of retaliation.
Some say it must be a ruse because no educated person would ever spend $3,000+ just to go an work a crappy jon in another country. Definitely not.
To summarize the link above, its for the Summer Work Visa Program in France. You must be enrolled in a university to participate. Program fee is over $900 (including insurance) and you are required to bring $2200 (1500 Euro) in self-support funds. For an additional $200, they will assist you in job placement. Housing is also additional and an average cost of E400-600, 2 months security required.
“participants in the Work in France program are usually offered entry-level jobs in the tourism and hospitality industry, retail stores, restaurants, pubs, call centers, telemarketing and ski resorts. Other options are work in basic administration positions or clerical work, promotional work, temporary work for special events or fairs, factory work or teaching English as foreign language.” generally at minimum wage (E8.44) with 25% deducted for taxes.
It’s a two-page form, but who knows how many other forms they were signing at the same time?
8 hours standing, no breaks? Doesn’t sound realistic, or legal. Lifting a 50 lb. box every 5 seconds? For 8 hours?
I’d like to know more about the housing.
I think there’s more to the story, on both sides. I see nothing wrong with the accusation that these students are not receiving a cultural exchange program and instead Hershey is using the J-1 visa program to avoid its responsibilities as an H2B employer, suckering these kids into paying the airfare when Hershey should be paying it.
We’ll see, I guess. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this work used to be performed by union workers making a lot more money. I bet they can’t even get Mexican migrant workers to do it under the described conditions and pay.
According to my math, at (8.44 x (mandated) 35 hr wk x 12 wks of work) - 24% for taxes = E2,678
Meanwhile costs
include
$-900 program fee
$2220 self support funds
$1500 rent (3 mos @ $500)
$1000 security deposit (2 mos @ $500)
$1500 transportation, groceries, and entertainment (that’s a low estimate, they claim E200/week or ~$3600, and I’m counting the self-support fund as contributing to this category once you arrive for a total fund of $3000.)
$700 airfare from the US
So that’s an outlay of $7,000 (if you don’t quite spend as much on food and fun as they recommend) for the opportunity to make around $2500 in takehome in France. That might or might not make much sense to some, but its the deal that’s out there.
Damn, I can’t add. That should be E2500, or about $3500. I think the point still stands.
Whack-a-mole, I’m sure you value ethnic diversity in various aspects of life, right? And I bet it’s because you believe that different people have different perspectives on things, so that it’s good to work or go to school with or be friends with different types of people because you can learn from their different perspective.
So try to apply that same thinking here. The students who took this deal have a different perspective than you. That perspective led them to believe they were making a good deal. You wouldn’t take the deal, but so what, these other students with their different perspectives did choose to take the deal. The fact that you wouldn’t have taken the deal doesn’t mean that the deal is immoral or should be illegal or inhumane or otherwise bad or whatever. They have a different perspective than you, and they took the deal.
Also, Hello Again, you are doing yeoman’s work here. Good job.