# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/1 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")
I posted this on my church website. I am trying to raise awareness about the suffering of the Palestinian people. I don’t think Jesus would be down with the concept. But that is a debate for another thread.
The post will be seen as very controversial in evangelical Christian circles, probably not so much so here.
There are some facts and background that you probably are aware of, but I included for the benefit of its original intended audience.
Anyway, I wanted to post it here and get reactions.
> [@](#):
>
> The Gaza Strip is 362 km² and is home to 1,500,000 people. That is 4,143 people per square kilometer.
>
> Richmond, VA is 162.0 km² with 197,790 people. That is 1,220 people per km².
>
> The Palestinians in Gaza are packed almost 4 times as densely as people in the City of Richmond. The difference is that the people of Gaza cannot enter or leave. Israel controls all of Gaza’s airspace, all of its coastline and sea routes, and all of its land entrances. It is the world’s largest open-air prison. It houses men, women, children, and the elderly.
>
> So how did these people get there? During World War I the British were in charge of the part of the conquered Ottoman Empire that included Palestine, which included Gaza. British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour issued the “Balfour Declaration of 1917”, which is a short note stating, “"His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.”
>
> For centuries there was a country called Palestine and in one letter the British declared it the “national home of the Jewish people”.
>
> After the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 over 700,000 Palestinians fled to Golan, the West Bank, and Gaza. These people are still living in squalid refugee camps 60 years later, unable to return home.
>
> Once again things have boiled over and Hamas is lashing out at Israel with the most powerful weapons they have, Qassam rockets. These rockets are fueled by sugar and potassium nitrate and have no guidance system.
>
> 50.3% of the population of Gaza is under the age of 14. They are packed together with little opportunity and less hope. They harbor the collective rage of generations treated unjustly. Now they are once again being humiliated by a superior military, and their homes are once again being destroyed as they are besieged by an occupying army. These kids are living in an environment that virtually guarantees they will develop a deep seeded hatred for Israel.
>
> Seems like both sides are doing exactly what will make the situation worse!
>
> But here is where you and I play a part. We live in a representative republic. That means we elect people who make decisions for us. We are providing weapons and tacit approval to continue the oppression of the Palestinian people. For the most part it seems Americans are not aware of the history of the situation or the misery that has been inflicted with our support. It is important that the American people learn about what is happening to the Palestinian people.
>
> Why? Because we are a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC and thus responsible and accountable for the decisions of our leaders. Right or wrong, radical groups like Hamas and Al Qaeda can draw a line from the suffering in Gaza to the American voter.
>
> If you follow this to its logical conclusion, it is only a matter of time before they strike here. Have you ever wondered why they haven’t yet? Can you imagine the damage that could be done by 10 groups of trained snipers similar to the ones who terrorized the DC area a few years ago? How about 10 teams starting wild fires near populated areas? Suicide bombers in crowded restaurants?
>
> These things are terrible to consider and I pray they never happen. However right now Israeli troops are invading Gaza in Merkava tanks and F-16 fighter planes paid for with $10 billion per year of your tax dollars. (each American sends about $33 annually)
>
> As financier of the current invasion of Gaza, you are making yourself a legitimate target. When it happens (God forbid), we will be dismayed, but we should not be surprised.
---
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/2 "2009-01-04T17:02:47Z")
I guess a key missing part of your post is the part about how Hamas started the war.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/3 "2009-01-04T17:11:03Z")
> [@](#):
>
> For centuries there was a country called Palestine…
No. If you want people to take your thesis seriously, you need to make sure it is free of assertions that are factually incorrect.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/4 "2009-01-04T17:11:30Z")
Putting aside your biased comments, Hamas isn’t just firing Qassams, but also Grads, and possibly Oghabs or Ra’ads.
---
### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/5 "2009-01-04T17:15:18Z")
If you’re talking to evangelical Christians, presumably their immediate response will be:
- don’t let the terrorists win
- support our troops
- this has happened since we elected a Democrat
---
### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/6 "2009-01-04T17:16:04Z")
**newcrasher** , what is your recommended solution?
---
### Author:  [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/7 "2009-01-04T17:17:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> I guess a key missing part of your post is the part about how Hamas started the war.
When? Last month?
---
### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/8 "2009-01-04T17:20:53Z")
Well, I doubt you’ll find many supporters here.
The notion that by voting for given representatives every member of a population is culpable for their nation’s actions is nonsense. Palestine was not a major vote issue just as lots of other conflicts in the world were not, and both parties took pretty much the same line on the conflict, so what is Joe American to do?
Proclaim lack of support for America’s policy on Palestine? Lots of Americans have done this, yet they’re still in the firing line according to your reasoning.
You ask why America has not yet been attacked by Hamas. Basically you’re asking why they have not attacked random US civilians because a proportion of those civilians may hold views contrary to their own.
Is “sanity” a sufficient answer?
Also you neglected to mention the aid that the US provides to Palestine: [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/crs/45198.pdf](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/crs/45198.pdf)
It’s true, I believe, that America gives more aid to Israel than Palestine. But look at it this way: plenty of countries give more aid to Palestine than Israel. Should Israel nuke those countries?
---
### Author:  [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/9 "2009-01-04T17:21:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> For centuries there was a country called Palestine and in one letter the British declared it the “national home of the Jewish people”.
I don’t think that’s accurate. It was an integral part of the Ottoman Empire. It wasn’t a country. Depending on what maps you are looking at, you might also see what ended up as Jordan.
If you are going to talk about American aid to Israel, you shouldn’t ignore American aid to other countries in the region, like Egypt and Jordan.
Where did you get the $10 billion figure? My reference shows it as $2.4 billion.
If Hamas tried to export their terrorism to the USA, it would be an incredibly stupid thing for them to do.
Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza have done everything possible to keep the border crossings with Israel closed. They seem to be under the misconception that Israel is obligated to never react to their provocations.
---
### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/10 "2009-01-04T17:27:47Z")
> [@newcrasher](#):
>
> When? Last month?
Well, strictly speaking Hamas never stopped attacking Israel, ever, and simply changes the tempo over time.
---
### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/11 "2009-01-04T17:28:09Z")
I don’t ever remember voting to kill Palestinian civilians. Even giving you the widest leeway to assume that I, as a voting American, have some responsibility for taking away the land of the Palestinians and somehow fueling the conflict, that doesn’t give anyone any justification for killing me.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/12 "2009-01-04T17:31:09Z")
The OP also needs to define “legitimate”. According to the Geneva Conventions, civilians are never legitimate targets.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/13 "2009-01-04T17:43:17Z")
> [@newcrasher](#):
>
> If you follow this to its logical conclusion
I’m sorry, you’re going to have to describe this path in greater detail.
Besides, your message ultimately seems to be “cower in fear of what might happen!” and I’m not sure how well that will sell to Americans. In fact, were Hamas to start staging attacks in the U.S., I expect the greater call will be to obliterate them utterly.
---
### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/14 "2009-01-04T17:55:19Z")
This is actually pretty much the argument ObL uses to justify terrorist actions against American citizens and to try to eel around Islamic prescriptions against slaughtering civilians. Or in other words al Qaeda has _already_ drawn that line between ( some hazy ideation of ) American international politics and its voters.
However it’s a specious and tortured justification when he does it and I’m afraid it’s specious and tortured when you do it as well, for reasons that have already been pointed out. There is never a legitimate reason to _target_ civilians in this day and age.
As for Palestine, the _region_ has been called that for centuries ( millenia, really ). As a name it’s comparable to Le Midi or Languedoc to refer to southern France - it’s never had any meaning as an independent political entity
---
### Author:  [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/15 "2009-01-04T18:13:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> I guess a key missing part of your post is the part about how Hamas started the war.
Its funny in not-really-funny-kind-of-way that Hamas wants Obama to do something when he’s not even in office, and how some are saying that Isreal’s response is disproportionate. If you shoot at me with a .22 and I whip out an M16 you probably shouldn’t have shot at me in the first place.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/16 "2009-01-04T18:34:13Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#):
>
> Its funny in not-really-funny-kind-of-way that Hamas wants Obama to do something when he’s not even in office, and how some are saying that Isreal’s response is disproportionate. If you shoot at me with a .22 and I whip out an M16 you probably shouldn’t have shot at me in the first place.
It’s more like someone throwing a rock at you and you responding by blowing up his house and killing his whole family.
---
### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/17 "2009-01-04T18:36:37Z")
I just hope Israel finishes this before people start to forget exactly why they attacked in the first place and criticism against them builds up again. It really sucks to be Israel, knowing you only have 3 or 4 months to find and eradicate the group who shoots rockets at random civilians before the world decides you’re not allowed to chase them anymore.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/18 "2009-01-04T18:39:01Z")
Forget it, **Newcrasher** , it’s Israel. There is absolutely nothing Israel can ever do, and no line it can ever cross that Americans will ever criticize. It’s the ultimate sacred cow, even in relatively liberal communities like this. Americans basically see Palestinians as evil and subhuman and deserving of extinction. Israel is never anything but a suffering martyr longing only for peace. You’re never going to change these people’s minds.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/19 "2009-01-04T18:50:58Z")
By the way, American civilians are not legitmate targets, but neither are Palestinian civilians.
---
### Author:  [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/20 "2009-01-04T18:51:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Forget it, **Newcrasher** , it’s Israel. There is absolutely nothing Israel can ever do, and no line it can ever cross that Americans will ever criticize. It’s the ultimate sacred cow, even in relatively liberal communities like this. Americans basically see Palestinians as evil and subhuman and deserving of extinction. Israel is never anything but a suffering martyr longing only for peace. You’re never going to change these people’s minds.
Now that’s a complete exaggeration of the truth.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=2)