# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/321 "2009-01-07T22:28:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Sorry for responding in three parts, but I was just perusing the thread, reading things here and there, and in particular, I hadn’t noted originally that the post I was quoting a bit of was a response to me. > > Well…of course, I added a fourth post to explain myself. Not the brightest thing to do, but here you go… 🙂 Aw, it’s no biggee, thanks for takin’ an interest. I cut and pasted all your other stuff, and again will just put it on this one. > [@](#): > > Hamas didn’t exist yet during this period. Leave in all other extremist groups in particular the PLO in place of Hamas of what you quoted of me, and I believe it will read right. Thanks for pointing this out. > [@](#): > > Yes. Thanks to the tunnels and to international aid. How do you think people in a small overcrowded area are going to support themselves without receiving anything from the outside? Do you think it rains food and medicine, there? It would seem to be a logistics nightmare to be feeding one million people every day through the tunnels that I’ve looked at. It defies logic and common sense. If what I’m reading is accurate, Israel’s blockade wasn’t until about two weeks ago, after the rockets started being fired into Israel. And Israel also started letting the UN aid back in as well. It would be a political disaster if Israel, US, and other countries actually starved them out; nor do I think this is what anybody wants. > [@](#): > > I didn’t check your figures, but what kind of manipulation of the refugee status resulted in this population increase, according to you? > > Do you think these 900 000+ new people aren’t refugees, and if so, where do they come from and why did they come, according to you? > > Or do you think they are actually refugees, and then where do you think they should have gone and how? The figures seem accurate for the Gaza land in 1951. Doing a google gives plenty of hits with that year and 80,000 inhabitants. No, I don’t think the vast majority are refugees, but the loose definition the UN gave specifically for them through Arab pressure helps point that out. Both political tools used from many Arab extremists so they can help annihilate Israel/Jews from any part of the Middle East. I’m sure you’re familiar with Walid Shoebat, who was a former PLO terrorist and now speaks candidly on this matter. Also, you may be familiar with another military commander of the PLO, a Zhuair Mushin and what he has to say. If not, they can be found here, as well as a great deal more of the Palestinian refugee issue in this link: [Palestinian Myths](http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm) If you’ve taken an interest in reading that link, I’d like to ask you after you’ve particularly read from the Palestinian refugees section, why don’t the Arab and Muslim nations take them in? Israel has one state where the Jewish population is the majority. The Arabs have over twenty. The people living in Gaza still find it to their liking. Why? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/322 "2009-01-08T00:20:37Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > It would seem to be a logistics nightmare to be feeding one million people every day through the tunnels that I’ve looked at. It defies logic and common sense. What makes you think it’s _not_ a logistical nightmare? > [@](#): > > If what I’m reading is accurate, Israel’s blockade wasn’t until about two weeks ago, after the rockets started being fired into Israel. Nope. I googled “Gaza blockade 2008”, for instance, and here [the first article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/30/israelandthepalestinians) I found about the issue, dating from one year ago. Similarly, the Egyptian border has been closed for a long time. > [@](#): > > And Israel also started letting the UN aid back in as well. It would be a political disaster if Israel, US, and other countries actually starved them out; nor do I think this is what anybody wants. Of course not. But for instance I looked on a site of the Israeli ministry for foreign affairs that listed precisely all the shipments that were allowed in Gaza last year. There has been very few of them. Maybe 15 or so, out of my head, I don’t have the page opened right now. Basically, what’s left in Gaza officially is the bare minimum for people not to starve. It has already been mentioned, in this thread or another, that there’s an issue with malnourished children, and that medical supplies are sorely lacking in Gaza. Besides, even if people are kept feed, it’s not with providing them with food that will, for instance, reduce the ludicrously high unemployment rate. For people to live a vaguely acceptable life, they need a job, and for jobs to exist, there must be trade. > [@](#): > > The figures seem accurate for the Gaza land in 1951. Doing a google gives plenty of hits with that year and 80,000 inhabitants. > > No, I don’t think the vast majority are refugees, but the loose definition the UN gave specifically for them through Arab pressure helps point that out. Both political tools used from many Arab extremists so they can help annihilate Israel/Jews from any part of the Middle East. I’m sure you’re familiar with Walid Shoebat, who was a former PLO terrorist and now speaks candidly on this matter. Also, you may be familiar with another military commander of the PLO, a Zhuair Mushin and what he has to say. If not, they can be found here, as well as a great deal more of the Palestinian refugee issue in this link: [Palestinian Myths](http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm) I quickly perused this link, and honestly, this page is a load of bullshit. I’m not going to answer their statements, and not even waste my time reading them. Some examples : -I couldn’t care less about who was living in Palestine 2000+ years ago, something the authors seem very interested in, since they devoted part of the page to this question. Anybody currently living in Palestine and Israel has in all likelihood ancestors who were living in Palestine 2000+ years ago (including Jewish, Roman, Philistine, Phoenician and what have you ancestors), and other ancestors who weren’t. And so do I, and so do you, very probably. So? -Yes, even though there were Palestinians in 1900, there wasn’t a Palestinian people at this time. So? Now, there has been one for some time. And besides, there wasn’t an Israeli people in 1900, either. -Palestinian wouldn’t be willing to admit that the ancestors of part of them were originating from other countries because otherwise they would have to come back to wherever those ancestors were living in 1917, like for instance Iraq. Well…if everybody had to come back to where his ancestors were living in 1917, there wouldn’t be many Israelis left. And what about the refugees whose ancestors were actually living in what is now Israel in 1917? Are they allowed to come back? -People who immigrated in Palestine only two years before the 1948 war were counted too as refugees. Again, so? And again, are the Jewish descendants of people who immigrated to Palestine merely two years before 1948 not counted as Israelis? Maybe there are some valid points buried somewhere in this page, but I’m not going to track them. Feel free to post whatever you feel is relevant. In particular, I’d again like to know where the 900 000+ new refugees where coming from (people who immigrated in Israel two years before 1948 and such were already counted in the 80 000 in 1951). Do you think that thousands of say, Moroccan, sneaked into squalid refugees camps to live there just to piss off Israel, or something? If it’s explained in the page you linked to, please point to me the relevant part. > [@](#): > > If you’ve taken an interest in reading that link, I’d like to ask you after you’ve particularly read from the Palestinian refugees section, why don’t the Arab and Muslim nations take them in? Israel has one state where the Jewish population is the majority. The Arabs have over twenty. The people living in Gaza still find it to their liking. Why? And there are even more nations where the Christian population is the majority, or where English-speaking people are the majority, and they don’t let in every Christian or English speaker who is in a dire situation. Actually, I’ve answered to that question in another current thread and honestly, I’m not too hot on doing it again. But, well, basically : -Why should Arab countries be obligated to let people in just because they’re Arabs too? -Arab countries stance is that Israel is responsible for the situation of the refugees and should take responsibility for it. They aren’t going to decide to solve the issue on behalf of Israel (who they consider is guilty) and at their own cost, and so validating the “fait accompli” of the expulsion of the Palestinians. -Palestinian refugees _are_ living in Arab countries. A small, unstable, torn by civil war, rather poor, country like Lebanon has a bunch of Palestinian refugees living on its soil, whose presence made an already difficult situation even more untenable, and caused a number of conflicts. And you’d expect them to do even more and grant them citizenship? -Why large, wealthy, stable, western countries, that both agree with or at least understand Israel’s stance, and pretend to feel concerned about the fate of the Palestinians aren’t taking them in and granting them citizenship, exactly? I’m sure there would be plenty of volunteers. Fact is, whether or not you could make an argument for why a particular country should welcome the refugees, _nobody_ wants to take in some millions refugees, regardless of who they are and where they come from. Note that I read somewhere recently that the number of refugees is increasing at a rate of 100 000/year, IIRC. Not because people try to pass as Palestinian refugees (who would want to do that?) but because they have children. I believe the majority of the population in Gaza, refugees or not, is younger than 15. These two figures should help you understand where the new refugees are coming from : from their mother’s uterus. Now, you’re free to volunteer to distribute condoms in Palestinian refugee camps, because the problem isn’t going to go away anytime soon. Another option is to try to convince your own government to hand out immigration visas. If at all possible more than 100 000 visas/year if you want the problem to be solved. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/323 "2009-01-08T00:52:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But for instance I looked on a site of the Israeli ministry for foreign affairs that listed precisely all the shipments that were allowed in Gaza last year. There has been very few of them. Maybe 15 or so, out of my head, I don’t have the page opened right now. I misremembered (or saw a different page, or mistook the weeks for the convoys, or something). [Here’s the page](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Humanitarian_assistance+_to_Gaza_since_June_19_calm_understanding_18_Nov_2008.htm) of the Israeli site listing all shipments allowed into Gaza. It details how many trucks entered, and what they were carrying. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/324 "2009-01-08T01:51:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > -Palestinian refugees _are_ living in Arab countries. A small, unstable, torn by civil war, rather poor, country like Lebanon has a bunch of Palestinian refugees living on its soil, whose presence made an already difficult situation even more untenable, and caused a number of conflicts. And you’d expect them to do even more and grant them citizenship? Lebanon was a stable country until Palestinian refuges turned it into a hellhole. The result has been a change of demographics with Christians migrating to other countries. Apparently nobody wants Palestinian immigrants. Go figure. What is left of Palestinian culture is divided between 2 plots of land and 2 complimentary political terrorist groups that have the backing of the people. When their mindset of hate and violence changes then maybe they can join the ranks of Egypt and Jordan as peaceful neighbors of Israel. Until then, all the money pouring into Hamas and Hezbollah will be converted into the instruments of Palestinian destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/325 "2009-01-08T04:54:47Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What makes you think it’s _not_ a logistical nightmare? Okay, I’ll go futher with it, and say it’s a logical impossibility to supply Gaza with their 1.5 million inhabitants every day with the food through tunnels that I have seen. You made out earlier that the tunnels were needed to get food in and for them not to starve. Unless these tunnels can drive 18 wheelers through them or something equivalent, I’d say that the food is getting in through regular means, minus brief periods of intense fighting and conflicts. > [@](#): > > Nope. I googled “Gaza blockade 2008”, for instance, and here the first article I found about the issue, dating from one year ago. Sorry, that link has nothing to do with blockading food. > [@](#): > > I quickly perused this link, and honestly, this page is a load of bullshit. I’m not going to answer their statements, and not even waste my time reading them. You flush before you wipe. You could have verified probably most of the pertinent quotes, if you would have researched it further, and not think this site worthy. Do a google with this for starters: +80,000 +1951 +gaza +inhabitants Cull over your own cites if think 80,000 inhabitants in Gaza in 1951 isn’t an accurate figure or if this is also something you think is bullshit. > [@](#): > > I quickly perused this link, and honestly, this page is a load of bullshit. I’m not going to answer their statements, and not even waste my time reading them. > > Some examples : > > -I couldn’t care less about who was living in Palestine 2000+ years ago, something the authors seem very interested in, since they devoted part of the page to this question. It’s a cite about human origins, so naturally, they will spend some time on it since both Israel and Palestine want to establish some kind of origins in this region. For this, you call bullshit? As for other parts, I don’t know what you are quoting or paraphrasing in your post since you didn’t use quotation marks. > [@](#): > > Maybe there are some valid points buried somewhere in this page, but I’m not going to track them. Feel free to post whatever you feel is relevant. There are plenty of relevant pieces, but I don’t’ care to track them to here either, when the whole lilnk probably wouldn’t take 10-15 minutes to read. It may very well be that certain parts may need debunking, and if so, it hasn’t been done by you; not yet, anyway. > [@](#): > > misremembered (or saw a different page, or mistook the weeks for the convoys, or something). Here’s the page of the Israeli site listing all shipments allowed into Gaza. It details how many trucks entered, and what they were carrying. I couldn’t open the link, but will try again later. ---
**Author:** ![Highpockets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e19adc/32.png) [@Highpockets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Highpockets)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/326 "2009-01-08T05:42:49Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > You flush before you wipe. You could have verified probably most of the pertinent quotes, if you would have researched it further, and not think this site worthy. > > Do a google with this for starters: +80,000 +1951 +gaza +inhabitants Cull over your own cites if think 80,000 inhabitants in Gaza in 1951 isn’t an accurate figure or if this is also something you think is bullshit. A google search for only the figure you are advocating is probably not the most sound approach. The 80,000 figure looked pretty low, so I did a couple searches of my own. Plenty of cites put the figure for population in the Gaza Strip around 240,000 to 300,000 after the establishment of the Armistice Line in 1949. See, e.g.: > **[Israel](https://books.google.com.au/books?id=aTqU-YskSpwC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=gaza+population+1951&source=web&ots=oA1CooRrx3&sig=ubx7Ks7MtVAAbOpw2Ct3-erxRsk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result)** > > There has probably never been a country in the history of the world like Israel: the homeland for Jews from all around the world, a visceral enemy of Arab countries, called a client state of the United States, a developed country in its own right by... [http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/25/opinion/edkennedy.php](http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/25/opinion/edkennedy.php) [http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/e06d649d586d1d05852562ae00725b26!OpenDocument](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/e06d649d586d1d05852562ae00725b26!OpenDocument) (See Section I.A.7) With fertility rates what they are in the region, it doesn’t seem surprising that this figure could have swelled to today’s levels. In fact, this book suggests the 80,000 figure was the population of the Gaza Strip _before_ the outbreak of the 1948 Palestine war, and that the population more than trebled as a result of the influx of refugees from areas under Israeli control. To me, this seems to be the most logical explanation for the differing figures and for the rise to the current level. > **[Peace in the Middle East](https://books.google.com.au/books?id=atUyhdQv1YIC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=armistice+line%2Bgaza+population&source=bl&ots=Em5dLd7q8b&sig=qUNc7--1HLTDApiEh8FdyPWTCTs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA50,M1)** > > Specialists from Israel, Europe and the US examine the implications of peace for Israel. How would it affect the country's political and economic systems and its national security, and what would peace mean for its regional and international standing... ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/327 "2009-01-08T06:32:08Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Okay, I’ll go futher with it, and say it’s a logical impossibility to supply Gaza with their 1.5 million inhabitants every day with the food through tunnels that I have seen. You made out earlier that the tunnels were needed to get food in and for them not to starve. Unless these tunnels can drive 18 wheelers through them or something equivalent, I’d say that the food is getting in through regular means, minus brief periods of intense fighting and conflicts. […] Sorry, that link has nothing to do with blockading food. I didn’t pay enough attention to the fact that you were focusing on food, and I indeed responded something like “that would be thanks to the tunnels and international aid”. But you’re right, a large part of the food comes from shipments. But not through “regular means” rather from humanitarian aid most of the population is dependant on. And food transits through the tunnels too. And still there are shortages. Israel normally (I’m not referring here to the last weeks, but to the general situation) allows food and some other basic supplies, along with a very limited quantity of fuel to enter Gaza, with occasional complete closures. There’s no possibility to import anything else, and no possibility to export anything at all. And _this_ blockade has been ongoing for quite a time. That’s why I said that tunnels are necessary. Sometimes, people need something else besides food, don’t you think? And without foreign aid (since you or another poster stated that it should be suspended) people would just starve. > [@](#): > > You flush before you wipe. You could have verified probably most of the pertinent quotes, if you would have researched it further, and not think this site worthy. I asked you a quite precise question : where are these 900 000+ refugees coming from if, according to you, they aren’t actually refugees? Instead of an answer, I got a link to a full page of what I think is mostly bullshit, including the history of Palestine 2500 years ago. > [@](#): > > Do a google with this for starters: +80,000 +1951 +gaza +inhabitants Cull over your own cites if think 80,000 inhabitants in Gaza in 1951 isn’t an accurate figure or if this is also something you think is bullshit. I didn’t write I didn’t believed your figure for 1951, just that I hadn’t checked it. I’m just asking you : who are the people living in Gaza, if they aren’t Palestinians? Where do they come from? ETA : according to the previous poster, your figure would be the population pre-1948 > [@](#): > > It’s a cite about human origins, so naturally, they will spend some time on it since both Israel and Palestine want to establish some kind of origins in this region. For this, you call bullshit? Concerning the antique history part, I don’t even have have a clue about the Palestinians’ claim regarding it (I know about the Jewish claims, of course), and I couldn’t care less, because that was 2000 years ago, for god’s sake! As for the rest, for the parts I took the time to read, yes, I call bullshit. If there’s something you think is true and relevant, again, point it to me. > [@](#): > > As for other parts, I don’t know what you are quoting or paraphrasing in your post since you didn’t use quotation marks. I paraphrased, from memory. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of relevant pieces, but I don’t’ care to track them to here either, when the whole lilnk probably wouldn’t take 10-15 minutes to read. It may very well be that certain parts may need debunking, and if so, it hasn’t been done by you; not yet, anyway. And I’ve no interest in doing so. I asked a specific question about the 900 000 non-refugees and somehow I’m supposed to read and debunk a whole page beginning with Palestine in 1000 BC or somesuch? I gave some examples to show why I thought it wasn’t worth reading. Like many others here, I’ve read my share of links about Israel and Palestine lately, and when I notice that a page contains bullshit claims, I just stop there. Especially when I don’t even know what it is you think is relevant to the conversation in this page. Now, if you think there’s something there really interesting and/or relevant to the “who are these 900 000 non-palestinians?” question, go ahead and quote it. > [@](#): > > I couldn’t open the link, but will try again later. I know. It tends to time out. That’s why I couldn’t access it at first. I suppose we aren’t the only ones trying to read it, given that it’s the English version of an official Israeli site. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/328 "2009-01-08T15:44:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Lebanon was a stable country until Palestinian refuges turned it into a hellhole. The result has been a change of demographics with Christians migrating to other countries. Apparently nobody wants Palestinian immigrants. Fascinating. Now, change Lebanon to B.M for Palestine and Palestinians refuges to Jewish refuges and voila… how about that “change in demographics” or “making the life a hellhole” or “nobody likes Jewish refuges”. But that would be too inconvenient, right? Maybe it sounds too offensive now? Or, it requires different kind of “moral courage”? And here I’m coming to what I ask this board to acknowledge – if, in all of these terrible situations, it would be someone else instead of the Palestinians most of the people would not hold these same – in my opinion, truly despicable – views. And for that reason I argue that the views held are either racist in its core or, just lazy. Not really different all that much - just like “intented” and “collateral” civilian damage. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/329 "2009-01-09T00:24:33Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Fascinating. > > Now, change Lebanon to B.M for Palestine and Palestinians refuges to Jewish refuges and voila… how about that “change in demographics” or “making the life a hellhole” or “nobody likes Jewish refuges”. The Jews are not persecuting Muslims in Israel nor do Jews have any problems moving between civilized nations. They also don’t wish to conquer Palestinian territory. The reverse is not true for Palestinians. They have proven to be a demographic pariah who nobody wants and that includes Jordan which is 55% Palestinian. When Jordan was faced with the same attempts by PLO military organizations to usurp control they enlisted the help of Israel to push them out. > [@newcomer](#): > > And here I’m coming to what I ask this board to acknowledge – if, in all of these terrible situations, it would be someone else instead of the Palestinians most of the people would not hold these same – in my opinion, truly despicable – views. And for that reason I argue that the views held are either racist in its core or, just lazy. Not really different all that much - just like “intented” and “collateral” civilian damage. To answer your question, nobody wants a paramilitary force to immigrate to their country. It doesn’t matter who they are. When you consider that Jordan was the majority of land carved out of the Ottoman Empire area of Palestine, there is already a state of Palestine. It just has a different name. And this country (which is represented by a majority of Palestinians) wants nothing to do with the morally and politically bankrupt population currently ruining their own destiny in Gaza and the West Bank. Your attempts at calling people racists for not supporting politically driven Palestinian terrorist groups is the last desperate act of a failed debate. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/330 "2009-01-09T00:36:04Z")
> [@Highpockets](#): > > In fact, this book suggests the 80,000 figure was the population of the Gaza Strip before the outbreak of the 1948 Palestine war, and that the population more than trebled as a result of the influx of refugees from areas under Israeli control. To me, this seems to be the most logical explanation for the differing figures and for the rise to the current level. I think this will help clarify some of the confusion caused by me. I thought I had used the 80,000 figure for the “original inhabitants” in Gaza for 1951, but looking back, I see I didn’t do this. I believe the original source for this is the UNRWA, which is why I see it so often quoted. Soon followed by the 200,000 or so refugees. Anyway, my bad for not stating this correctly. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/331 "2009-01-09T13:16:21Z")
The differences are so vast I’ll have to respond to only two major statements that I find so engrossing yet so typical of the “political language” developed to defend unjustifiable (thank you George Orwell). > [@Magiver](#): > > The Jews are not persecuting Muslims in Israel nor do Jews have any problems moving between civilized nations. I was referring to your statement hoping you would recognize the same generic racist statements you made were once echoed throughout Western Europe (with the same vigor and no-blink mentality as you exposed) in regards to Jews **before and during WWI**. Now, please, re-read my previous paraphrase of your comment again with this context in mind and tell me if you are still unmoved. > [@Magiver](#): > > They also don’t wish to conquer Palestinian territory. This is your opinion and not a fact. However, the fact is that the cities being shelled by Hamas rockets used to be Palestinian cities. Sderot, Beersheva and Ashkelon were all conquered (of course, city names are different – everybody does that). But, I guess when you say the statement quoted above, you probably mean **from this moment on** , Israelis don’t wish to conquer Palestinian territory. Duh! And of course, this one: > [@Magiver](#): > > Your attempts at calling people racists for not supporting politically driven Palestinian terrorist groups is the last desperate act of a failed debate. But you are. And, like most racist people I met – you don’t like to be called like that. Fine. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/332 "2009-01-09T15:47:14Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > But you are. And, like most racist people I met – you don’t like to be called like that. Fine. Of course, that’s it! They (He, she) MUST be racist. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense for you to hold the oh-so-fair-and-rational opinions you do. All nice and neat. And I’m still waiting for you to answer my last post to you. Unless not doing so is a belated Christmas gift to me. In which case, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/333 "2009-01-09T16:06:37Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > But you are. And, like most racist people I met – you don’t like to be called like that. Fine. Calling a group or an action racist is permitted in this Forum, but calling other posters racist is name-calling and is prohibited. Knock it off. And since you have already been Warned for name-calling in this thread, this is a second **Warning** that you are out of bounds. You can be as passionate about this topic as you wish, but you are not to turn it into a personal fight. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/334 "2009-01-09T22:28:34Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I was referring to your statement hoping you would recognize the same generic racist statements you made were once echoed throughout Western Europe . I haven’t made any racist statements about anybody. I pointed out that Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank are not welcome in the region due to their explosive political nature. Egypt and Jordan don’t want what happened in Lebanon to happen in their country. And, as I said before, Jordan is 55% Palestinian and that says a lot about the situation as does the fact that they asked Israel for help removing them. > [@newcomer](#): > > This is your opinion and not a fact. However, the fact is that the cities being shelled by Hamas rockets used to be Palestinian cities. And all of Jordan use to be Palestine under the Ottoman Empire. What’s your point? It’s clear from everything you’ve written that you do not support the existence of Israel. They do not have an agenda to destroy Gaza or the West Bank but Hamas and Hezbollah want to destroy Israel. How you don’t understand this I don’t know. Israel has returned land taken during a war to conquer them. This is their agenda, to live in peace with their neighbors. It’s not my opinion that they’ve attempted to live in peace, it’s a fact of history. Your position in this in untenable in a civilized world. You expect Israel to accept state sponsored military attacks and suicide bombers without defending themselves. Every attempt to maintain a cease-fire has failed and it failed because Hamas and Hezbollah do not accept the State of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/335 "2009-01-10T00:41:44Z")
Since Red has brought up some issues in the wrong thread, I figured I’d address them in the correct one. From [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10672912#post10672912): The response: > [@Obama should pressure Israel to remove some West Bank Settlements](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/22): > > Should you be finished attacking that particular source Here, [I’ll spot you one.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credibility) I’m not sure how you want me to address Pat’s rampant racism, conspiracy mongering and outright lunacy. What, you want a debate over whether or not Hillary really is an Israeli spy and if there really is a ZOG? May I suggest Stormfront? > [@Obama should pressure Israel to remove some West Bank Settlements](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/22): > > So…let’s go with President Carter next A man who, to be charitable, should be questioned if he said it was raining outside. He’s a pathological liar when it comes to the IP issue, and his stock in trade is massive whoppers of falsehoods, like claiming that Hamas hadn’t attacked Israel for several years during a period in which they had _repeatedly taken credit for attacks_. I see you’ve also got some nifty Holocaust trivializing with at least one article babbling about a Palestinian Holocaust, another claiming that conduct expliictly legal under the 4th GC is “breaking all international laws” plus the “ayieee disproportionate!” canard, and you’re pretending that Israel is engaging in indiscriminate fire on Gaza… and so on. You’re hitting all the debunked talking points of the anti-Israel crowd. Who’d a thunk it? This, of course, originally \*in a thread that’s not about Gaza \*. So, naw, credibility wise I don’t really need to waste my time, especially since I shouldn’t have been feeding your hijack in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/336 "2009-01-10T01:43:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … Israel has returned land taken during a war to conquer them. This is their agenda, to live in peace with their neighbors. It’s not my opinion that they’ve attempted to live in peace, it’s a fact of history… By appropriation of lands already occupied, so that an ethnically pure ‘Judea and Samaria’ can be realized, free of any of the unclean races of people. And by agitating the Iraq war and sponsoring another against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/337 "2009-01-10T02:25:57Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > By appropriation of lands already occupied, so that an ethnically pure ‘Judea and Samaria’ can be realized, free of any of the unclean races of people. > > And by agitating the Iraq war and sponsoring another against Iran. So you want to go back in time and turn Israel/Jordan back over to Palestine? Any other changes you liked to make? Care to turn your house over to the last indigenous people? Israel and Jordon exist. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/338 "2009-01-10T02:38:58Z")
**Magiver** , I don’t mean to step on your toes, but before you engage in any discussion: I’d contend that there’s [there’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356405) just [really no point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10468378&). You’re talking with someone who actually just claimed that the US is the “servant” and Israel is the “master” and Obama will simply be given his Israel policy directly from Jerusalem. Except, he can’t even bring himself to say that the Israeli government is located in Jerusalem, so he says Tel Aviv [instead.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10673462#post10673462) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/339 "2009-01-10T02:48:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I haven’t made any racist statements about anybody. I pointed out that Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank are not welcome in the region due to their explosive political nature. So now, Palestinians are intruders. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And all of Jordan use to be Palestine under the Ottoman Empire. What’s your point? That for Palestinians there is no really difference - then and now. They are not free. > [@](#): > > It’s clear from everything you’ve written that you do not support the existence of Israel. I thought name calling was not allowed. Especially baseless as this one. Would moderator apply the rules to this or this is not name calling as it is very skillfully veiled. Or, maybe this board reflects “civilized world” defined below? > [@](#): > > Your position in this in untenable in a civilized world. If couple of US politicians is a civilized world then I’d agree. But considering the quality of the average US politician (and low price I might add) your definition of civil world is a bleak one. Again, I call back George Orwell who said it best: > [@Orwell](#): > > As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit. So, for me trying to point out certain inconsistencies of the current situation in ME with history and contemporary understanding of the issues, you and your ilk keep describing Israel as some sort of a saint among savages who do not deserve an iota of civility. If I was able to detect just a little drop of humility in the sea of righteousness and praise for all things Israel, I would reconsider my position and perhaps rethink them. But the obsession you posses is exactly as Orwell described it 50 years ago. That kind of delusion unfortunately very rarely defuses on its own. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/340 "2009-01-10T03:03:02Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > So now, Palestinians are intruders. The overwhelmingly vast majority are as much immigrants as the Israelis themselves. Edit: in pretty much the exact same time period, what’s more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=18)