# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/21 "2009-01-04T18:52:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Americans basically see Palestinians as evil and subhuman and deserving of extinction. Israel is never anything but a suffering martyr longing only for peace. You’re never going to change these people’s minds. There you go again. Painting the other side in the most extreme terms possible instead of appreciating that there is a fair amount of gray here. There has been _nothing_ posted here that characterizes Palestinians as subhuman or evil. NOTHING. The only misrepresentation made have been made by those vilifying Israel. And who claim that because America voters put in a government that supports the evil Israelis they have made themselves and their families, as civilians, a legitimate target of attack. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/22 "2009-01-04T18:52:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Forget it, **Newcrasher** , it’s Israel. There is absolutely nothing Israel can ever do, and no line it can ever cross that Americans will ever criticize. It’s the ultimate sacred cow, even in relatively liberal communities like this. Americans basically see Palestinians as evil and subhuman and deserving of extinction. Israel is never anything but a suffering martyr longing only for peace. You’re never going to change these people’s minds. I hope that’s not the case. There has to be a line _somewhere_ that people will at least stop and think “Hmm, maybe supporting Israel isn’t such a good idea after all…” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/23 "2009-01-04T18:54:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Forget it, **Newcrasher** , it’s Israel. There is absolutely nothing Israel can ever do, and no line it can ever cross that Americans will ever criticize. It’s the ultimate sacred cow, even in relatively liberal communities like this. Americans basically see Palestinians as evil and subhuman and deserving of extinction. Israel is never anything but a suffering martyr longing only for peace. You’re never going to change these people’s minds. Oh, really **Diogenes** - you know better than that. You’re a smart guy, but you’re letting your hyperbole run away with you again. I know you’re exaggerating for effect, but it usually isn’t helpful in a thread like this, generally triggering a pointless hijack over the particulars of your own thesis, while ignoring the OP’s. On the other hand I always find these sort of posts useful as a representation of the different perceptions posters bring to the table about this little community. “This board is hopelessly anti-Arab!” “This board is full of lefty haters of Israel!” At times I find the disconnects slightly charming in a dysfunctional sort of way. Other times it’s just frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/24 "2009-01-04T18:56:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There you go again. Painting the other side in the most extreme terms possible instead of appreciating that there is a fair amount of gray here. There has been _nothing_ posted here that characterizes Palestinians as subhuman or evil. NOTHING. The only misrepresentation made have been made by those vilifying Israel. And who claim that because America voters put in a government that supports the evil Israelis they have made themselves and their families, as civilians, a legitimate target of attack. I said it does NOT make American civilians legitimate targets, but there’s an irony here that those who are offended by this thread title have no problem seeing Palestinian children become “collateral damage,” and use basically the same rationale. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/25 "2009-01-04T19:02:30Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Oh, really **Diogenes** - you know better than that. You’re a smart guy, but you’re letting your hyperbole run away with you again. I know you’re exaggerating for effect, but it usually isn’t helpful in a thread like this, generally triggering a pointless hijack over the particulars of your own thesis, while ignoring the OP’s. > > On the other hand I always find these sort of posts useful as a representation of the different perceptions posters bring to the table about this little community. “This board is hopelessly anti-Arab!” “This board is full of lefty haters of Israel!” At times I find the disconnects slightly charming in a dysfunctional sort of way. Other times it’s just frustrating. I’m trying to mirror the kind of knee-jerk, unnuanced, black/white oversimplification that’s always used by Israel supporters to steamroll any attempt to argue that the Palestinians have any legitimate grievances or that any aggressive act by Israel may not be 100% justified. ETA, I will say to this board’s credit that no one has resorted to the “antisemite” card. Not even the Israeli posters. I appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/26 "2009-01-04T19:38:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I said it does NOT make American civilians legitimate targets, but there’s an irony here that those who are offended by this thread title have no problem seeing Palestinian children become “collateral damage,” and use basically the same rationale. Perhaps if the OP asked if it would be acceptable if American children became collateral damage, this would be relevant. As it stands, it seems pretty straightforward that we’re not talking about collateral damage. It also appears that you disagree with the OP. So… ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/27 "2009-01-04T19:48:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The notion that by voting for given representatives every member of a population is culpable for their nation’s actions is nonsense. Who do these “representatives” represent? They represent the people who elect them. We cannot all go to DC, so we send these people in _ **OUR** _ stead. We are certainly responsible for the decisions of our elected officials. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/28 "2009-01-04T19:52:47Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Who do these “representatives” represent? They represent the people who elect them. We cannot all go to DC, so we send these people in _ **OUR** _ stead. We are certainly responsible for the decisions of our elected officials. It seems to me that by your reasoning, the civilians in Gaza are legitimate targets. After all, they did elect Hamas . . no? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/29 "2009-01-04T19:53:35Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > .For centuries there was a country called Palestine and in one letter the British declared it the “national home of the Jewish people”. I too, believe it’s always been a geographical area whose boundaries have changed over time; never a country. The meaning of Palestine has also changed over time. Today it can also mean a proposed Palestinian state. I often wonder why the Arab extremists who make up much of the leadership of the Palestine region today, so often pick a fight with Israel, knowing full well of the ass whupin’ they are about to receive and are receiving. Were their coffers running low again, and needed to appeal to world aid once again after the onslaught? How often do they do this? And how much of this region is dependent on handouts from other countries? I feel for the innocent Palestinian people, I really do. It’s a shame they voted in Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/30 "2009-01-04T19:54:55Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I hope that’s not the case. There has to be a line _somewhere_ that people will at least stop and think “Hmm, maybe supporting Israel isn’t such a good idea after all…” That line has been crossed countless times. And is now crossed again. But raise any objections and the well is immediately poisoned with some nonsense about antisemitism. And any reasonable debate or argument is made impossible. Diogenes made a very good analogy above, in regards rock throwing. Israel is guilty of, at least in my opinion, crimes against humanity for it’s ongoing blockade and invasion. But nobody listens. They find damned near anything Israel does to be perfectly acceptable. And damn themselves by association. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/31 "2009-01-04T19:59:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP also needs to define “legitimate”. According to the Geneva Conventions, civilians are never legitimate targets. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the collective punishment of a people. Obviously all Gazans are being punished for the miltitary actions of Hamas. No doubt Hamas uses this to their advantage by hiding among the populace. However as densely populated as Gaza is, it would be difficult NOT to do this. The past decade has proven that the Geneva Conventions are a hando moral guide, but not practically useful in war. You may use the most common understanding of “legitimate”. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/32 "2009-01-04T19:59:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, American civilians are not legitmate targets, but neither are Palestinian civilians. I think we can all agree there. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/33 "2009-01-04T20:00:37Z")
[… ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/34 "2009-01-04T20:04:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m trying to mirror the kind of knee-jerk, unnuanced, black/white oversimplification that’s always used by Israel supporters to steamroll any attempt to argue that the Palestinians have any legitimate grievances or that any aggressive act by Israel may not be 100% justified. > > ETA, I will say to this board’s credit that no one has resorted to the “antisemite” card. Not even the Israeli posters. I appreciate that. So what should Israel have done about the rocket attacks? I’m not sure full scale ground invasion and bombing whole apartment buildings is the right answer either, but you can’t honestly be suggesting that Israel do nothing at all in response to hundreds of attacks aimed at their citizens. I’m honestly curious about what people like you think IS an appropriate response in Israel’s position. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/35 "2009-01-04T20:04:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I don’t ever remember voting to kill Palestinian civilians. Even giving you the widest leeway to assume that I, as a voting American, have some responsibility for taking away the land of the Palestinians and somehow fueling the conflict, that doesn’t give anyone any justification for killing me. You wouldn’t remember voting to kill Palestinians because of course you didn’t. You elected leaders who push the right buttons for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/36 "2009-01-04T20:06:19Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > You wouldn’t remember voting to kill Palestinians because of course you didn’t. You elected leaders who push the right buttons for you. So did Gaza, but that doesn’t make it right to blow up a random Gaza bus station. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/37 "2009-01-04T20:07:14Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Obviously all Gazans are being punished for the miltitary actions of Hamas. Assuming this is true, it would seem to be legitimate by your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/38 "2009-01-04T20:11:27Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > So what should Israel have done about the rocket attacks? I’m not sure full scale ground invasion and bombing whole apartment buildings is the right answer either, but you can’t honestly be suggesting that Israel do nothing at all in response to hundreds of attacks aimed at their citizens. > > I’m honestly curious about what people like you think IS an appropriate response in Israel’s position. How about making the living conditions in Gaza tolerable? The shithole that it is, with no hope or expectation of improvement, breeds the hatred and hopelessness that allows them to lash out. Hamas is a collective fuckup. No doubt about that. They are driven by understandable rage at the state of the Palestinian people. Their impotent attacks generally serve to to get the shit clobbered out of their people, and not much more. But the collective enforcement of misery on a people does not create an environment conducive to peace. In fact just the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/39 "2009-01-04T20:13:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assuming this is true, it would seem to be legitimate by your reasoning. Perhaps this is true. So why should American civilians, with their tacit support and financial support of the military hardware being used against the Gazans, be immune from being legitimate targets? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/40 "2009-01-04T20:17:38Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Perhaps this is true. So why should American civilians, with their tacit support and financial support of the military hardware being used against the Gazans, be immune from being legitimate targets? I don’t know, I suppose it depends how you define “legitimate.” In any event, the residents of Gaza are fortunate that Israel does not see things your way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=3)