# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/401 "2009-01-14T20:21:11Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I actually read the book. It was not as “extreme” as I am by a long margin. I was unaware of distorted facts. Could you elaborate? Did you read the book, or are you posting from someone else’s gloss? I will agree that it had a point of view, but “extreme”, hardly. And “bias” is a strong word for someone like Carter who not only knows the facts well, but was an eyewitness (probably the only one still living) to the most successful negotiations that took place. > > I am well aware that people do call Carter all sorts of names and attribute motives of evil to him, but that seems to be an “extreme” bias. Were Carter an actual poster at the SDMB these people would be warned and then banned for their repeated offenses. I worked for one of his opponents in 1980, and I consider Carter an honorable man. Carter’s book was riddled with provable factual errors, all of which weighed against Israel or made Israel appear to be in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/402 "2009-01-14T20:48:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’s right, though. Carter’s book on Israel was extremely biased and distorted the facts. Then, I’m sure you can provide an independent cite. While I read some of non-independent criticism, main points of the book still remain. And, in many non-independent criticism are never addressed. For example: > [@](#): > > He believes the Israeli government’s failure to withdraw fully from the West Bank is illegal and immoral; he condemns settlement construction; and he lambastes its current human rights abuse in the West Bank, which he labels “one of the worst examples of human rights abuse I know.”[5] From the time he was president, he has criticized Israel’s confiscation of Palestinian land, usurpation of water rights, and retaliatory bulldozing of Palestinian houses. Such policies, he has argued, are responsible for the moribund Palestinian economy. Carter holds particular animus toward the security barrier, first proposed by the late prime minister and Nobel Peace Prize winner Yitzhak Rabin,[6] as the latest example of what he believes to be a policy of de facto annexation of the West Bank. from [http://www.meforum.org/article/1633](http://www.meforum.org/article/1633) Now, factual parts of the above are all true; however, it is also true that some other people might give different (i.e. positive or affriming) interpretation of the above (for example, barrier prevents suicide bombers so who cares if that same barrier is on occupied land or if the barrier creates daily problems for residents). So, I think criticism of this book is in viewpoint and factual issues relatively pale in comparison with the overall message. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/403 "2009-01-14T20:58:34Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Then, I’m sure you can provide an independent cite. > > While I read some of non-independent criticism, main points of the book still remain. And, in many non-independent criticism are never addressed. For example: > > from [http://www.meforum.org/article/1633](http://www.meforum.org/article/1633) > > Now, factual parts of the above are all true; however, it is also true that some other people might give different (i.e. positive or affriming) interpretation of the above (for example, barrier prevents suicide bombers so who cares if that same barrier is on occupied land or if the barrier creates daily problems for residents). > > So, I think criticism of this book is in viewpoint and factual issues relatively pale in comparison with the overall message. Those are his opinions, not facts. But even so … From your quote: > [@](#): > > and he lambastes its current human rights abuse in the West Bank, which he labels “one of the worst examples of human rights abuse I know.” This is, in itself, an oddity. No-one claims that the situation on the West Bank is great, but really - one of the _worst_? That’s simply not credible. I would suggest that the situation in Somalia would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/404 "2009-01-14T21:22:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Those are his opinions, not facts. :rolleyes: Facts: - illegal settlement construction - continued human rights abuse - continued confiscation of Palestinian land - usurpation of water rights - retaliatory bulldozing of Palestinian houses I mean, what is this… 1st grade??? Now, again, you could disagree with President Carter’s opinion of those facts (even though I’d say it is pretty much in line with, often cited, civilized world). As I said, amazing board. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/405 "2009-01-14T21:46:25Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > illegal settlement construction Wrong. Deemed “illegal” by a non-binding UN resolution, all other relevant treaties and UNSC resolution 242 call for a negotiated compromise. > [@newcomer](#): > > continued human rights abuse Depends on what the actual claims are. Most turn out to be bogus, much like your claims that the 4th Geneva Convention’s proscribed rules of war are “war crimes”, and you just know that without having to actually find the relevant laws because of Serbian snipers, or some such. > [@newcomer](#): > > continued confiscation of Palestinian land And this is where bias becomes readily apparent. There never was a sovereign nation of Palestine. Even under the previous sovereigns, the vast majority of the land that is now claimed as “Palestinian” was, in fact, Miri land and thus, state owned and only ‘rented’ by its occupants. > [@newcomer](#): > > usurpation of water rights [Heh.](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=12&x_article=173) > [@newcomer](#): > > As I said, amazing board. You’re free to leave any time now. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/406 "2009-01-14T21:51:49Z")
Well, then, based on “overwhelming evidence” I can see how average American one would conclude that Palestinians are just being selfish pricks. So, fire away… f\*\*k ‘em, eh? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/407 "2009-01-14T21:53:45Z")
Colorless green dreams sleep furiously. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/408 "2009-01-14T21:58:25Z")
Oh, that’s just _rude_, Fin. He’s not that bad. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/409 "2009-01-14T22:11:13Z")
His grammar? Naw. The thought-salad that made up his last post? Heck yes! I’m still trying to puzzle out how anything I said translates into “average American one would conclude that Palestinians are just being selfish pricks.” Or for that matter "So, fire away… f\*\*k ‘em, eh? " I mean, hell, there’s still a thread on the front page where I stated quite clearly that the Bridging Proposal was excellent and that the US should use economic leverage in order to force Israel to stop expanding its settlements in the West Bank. He seems to just be posting gobledygook based on a tenuous grasp of my actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/410 "2009-01-15T01:09:10Z")
[**Bomb A Ghetto - Raise A Cheer**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21746.htm) Well, after watching that video I’m convinced. Israel can do no wrong – even God and Democrats are on their side. And no wonder they sound so happy, [plenty of reasons](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21743.htm)\* for them to be. \*Warning. Graphic pictures of human suffering. If Palestinians still qualify for that title anyway. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/411 "2009-01-15T01:11:47Z")
Wait, you mean Israel’s bombs aren’t filled with pixy dust and love? Wow Red, thanks for bringing this to our attention. Your keen insight saves the day, as always. Interestingly enough, I remember you handwaving away actual fascist demonstrators at a Danish rally, what, just a few days ago? Evidently it matters when they’re at a pro-Israel rally, boy howdy! Remind us again just how Israel should go about carrying out legitimate self defense without any civilian casualties, since you’re obviously not simply reflexively an anti-Israel partisan who demands that Israel just sit there and take rocket fire. Surely you’ll post, right away, telling us exactly how you’d prosecute the war. Right? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/412 "2009-01-15T04:46:47Z")
> [@Finn](#): > > Interestingly enough, I remember you hand waving away actual fascist demonstrators at a Danish rally, what, just a few days ago? Cite? In addition, would you please explain the difference in deaths between Palestinian refugees and pissed-off Israelis.? Because from all I can gather its the Mighty IDF who holds all the cards. The Best propaganda along with political control. Nevermind the surreal death tolls. Seriously, I don’t expect for you to recognize a thing I’ve said. ~J PS-Who do you think has more cheerleaders US-siders than any other Nation? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/413 "2009-01-15T05:24:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Carter’s book was riddled with provable factual errors, all of which weighed against Israel or made Israel appear to be in the wrong. Carter’s book was riddled with provable facts, many of which, when considered in context, made Israel appear to the reading public exactly in the light. He referred to a whole book of facts in context, and dismiss Israel’s claims in a sentence. He might have made errors. I generally believe him and dismiss his detractors. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/414 "2009-01-15T11:07:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > made Israel appear to the reading public exactly in the light. He referred to a whole book of facts in context, and dismiss Israel’s claims in a sentence. So you accidentally a Carter book? Seriously, there’s a few words missing there. And Finn, I don’t care, calling him Noam Chomsky is just beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/415 "2009-01-15T12:21:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah yes. Those drones. Obviously didn’t make up their own minds. They’re just sucking up Israeli propaganda. > **[Comedy Central The Daily Show Fan Page](https://www.cc.com/fan-hub/the-daily-show)** > > The source for The Daily Show fans, with episodes hosted by Jon Stewart, Ronny Chieng, Jordan Klepper, Dulcé Sloan and more, plus interviews, highlights and The Weekly Show podcast. From 3m40s and the response to Bloomberg towards the end is also valid. But I guess he is just a self-hating Jew isn’t he (along with all the other Jews that work on the show)? Speaking as someone that has lived in multiple countries outside the US, the bias towards the Jews in the American mainstream media and in Politics is quite extreme. It helps that AIPAC was described by Fortune as the second most powerful lobby group in the US as well. You can deny it all you want, but it is there. Few, if any, are immune to propaganda. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Perhaps they’ve been _paying attention_? Maybe they know full well what will happen and the PR uses that it will be put to? Exactly. Finally we are agreeing on something. By showing the widespread destruction and human killing, alongside the lack of food, water, medicine and whatnot people might start to think that the Israeli invasion is a bad idea. Not to mention that there could be independent verification of alleged destruction of civilian sites that had no connection to weapons and the alleged use of white phosphorus and cluster bombs. Cluster bombing is especially interesting as it would put pay to any claim that the Israelis were not being indiscriminate in their bombing. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Perhaps they remember the outrageous and systemic release of staged, fabricated, fraudulent and blatantly obviously false photos and news stories coming out of Lebanon during Israel’s war with Hezbollah? > > Of cameramen and journalists going on guided tours led by Hezbollah and then uncritically reporting their findings, including one moron who reported that Hezbollah was not based out of civilian areas… in the same article where he talked about Hezbollah had captured and was using a Lebanese apartment complex ? Of cameramen and journalists seeing scenes deliberately created and re-enacted, including but not limited to the bodies of children being put into ambulances over and over again to get the best camera angle… and then submitting them as if they were authentic stories? Of posed, pristine children’s toys, bridge’s gowns, etc… next to or actually inside bombed out, rubble strewn buildings, without a spec of dust on them? Claims that an ambulance was hit and penetrated by an Israeli milssile, but escaped with a simple small hole int he roof and floor? A US News and World Report cover captioned with Hezbollah guerilla poses at the site of an Israeli attack near Beirut", the same photo showing up in Time with the caption “wreckage of a downed Israeli jet.” And, even a cursory examination of the photo showed that what was “attacked” and what was “wreckage” was actually a pile of tires in a garbage dump that someone had set on fire? > > Maybe doctored photos put out by Reuters itself with laughably obvious use of the Photoshop Clone tool that any third rate editor could, and would, have caught? > > Gee, I wonder. Oh I see, they _faked_ the widespread death and destruction, especially amongst civilians. Clever chaps, these Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/416 "2009-01-15T12:34:38Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Oh I see, they _faked_ the widespread death and destruction, especially amongst civilians. Clever chaps, these Arabs. Either you are so ignorant that you’re unaware of the widespread phautoxagraphy that came out of Lebanon, or you’re deliberately arguing disingenuously in order to make your argument as frustrating as possible. In either case, taking the bait isn’t worth my time. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/417 "2009-01-15T12:37:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Either you are so ignorant that you’re unaware of the widespread phautoxagraphy that came out of Lebanon, or you’re deliberately arguing disingenuously in order to make your argument as frustrating as possible. In either case, taking the bait isn’t worth my time. Oh I admit that it happened, I just also accept there was a metric arseload of other stuff that wasn’t faked and that none of that really worked for Israel. Is it weird that I don’t really agree with the idea that the only people that can verify Israel’s claims are Israel? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/418 "2009-01-15T12:40:42Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > He might have made errors. I generally believe him and dismiss his detractors. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m not terribly persuaded by any argument you make, or any Alessan makes because it is obvious that you are engaged in propaganda on behalf of Israel, despite any protestations to the contrary. Charles Krauthammer, pundit extraordinaire and Alan Dershowitz, law professor, do the same thing for Israel. While I can sometimes pull bits of information out of their spew, they are not persuadable, they are committed advocates much like press flacks Do I even need to say it? > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > And Finn, I don’t care, calling him Noam Chomsky is just beyond the pale. 😃 I assume I’ve just been whooshed, good show. Simply to clarify in case I wasn’t wooshed, I was making reference to Chomsky’s phrase which demonstrated that even a grammatically correct sentence could have zero semantic value. > [@RedFury](#): > > Cite? [Post 26.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=501365) Where, in reaction to actual fascists chanting things like “Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!” and “Gas the Jews!” your response was to… talk about Gandhi. Never mind though, when it’s nasty pro-Israel supporters in New York, you’re oh so very outraged. And, lo and behold, not one word of how you’d prosecute the war if you were Israel. Just, as usual, the normal extreme kneejerk anti-Israel partisan screed which denies them the right to self defense that every other nation on the globe has. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/419 "2009-01-15T12:45:15Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Oh I admit that it happened Roger, disingenuous argument then. The only way to win that game is not to play. Adios. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/420 "2009-01-15T13:12:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Roger, disingenuous argument then. > The only way to win that game is not to play. > > Adios. What on earth are you on about? A few people faking things means that we should discount absolutely everything that happened in that war? Are you serious? Seriously, are you comfortable with the fact that there is no way to independently verify Israel’s claims and that there are no independent investigations into claims of targeting civilians and of using white phosphorus and cluster bombs? Just because Israel says that there were weapons we should automatically believe them? Don’t you remember the WMD fiasco? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=22)