# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/441 "2009-01-16T02:46:32Z")
Gentlemen, two words: White Phosphorous. Use your favorite search engine and continue dissembling. Oh and for those wanting a cite from the IDF or any other official Israeli source explicitly saying they switched stories…bwahahahaha! God one! What next? A cite from Bush that the US lied its way into war with Iraq? You’re funny, dude. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/442 "2009-01-16T02:55:07Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Oh and for those wanting a cite from the IDF or any other official Israeli source explicitly saying they switched stories…bwahahahaha! God one! I have my own rules of debate, and I won’t debate with people who insist on strawmanning, i.e. misrepresenting my position. Here is the relevant quote from your source: > [@](#): > > The IDF even claimed to have video footage to back up its claims, though it turned out to be over a year old and from a different school in a different city. I am simply asking you to show me where the IDF made such a claim. However, I never asked you for a cite from the IDF “explicitly saying they switched stories.” Please do not misrepresent my position. Thank you. P.S. The fact that you cannot back up your claim and instead must resort to distorting my request tends to confirm my suspicion, which is that your source simply fabricated its story. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/443 "2009-01-16T03:04:55Z")
Spain’s newspaper of record, **El Pais** , front page: [Israel también bombardea una sede de la ONU en Gaza](http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Muerto/bombardeo/ministro/Interior/Hamas/elpepuint/20090115elpepuint_8/Tes) > [@](#): > > Raquel Martí, directora ejecutiva de UNRWA en España, ha informado de una situación “caótica” en la sede de la agencia en Gaza tras el ataque. El bombardeo se ha producido a las 10 de la mañana y ha incendiando algunas instalaciones del complejo, por ejemplo el centro de formación, en el que se refugiaban 700 personas. Según UNRWA, “dos disparos de artillería y tres bombas de fósforo blanco” han caído en el complejo “Raquel Marti, UNRWA’s executive director in Spain, has informed the media of a “chaotic” situation at the agency’s base in Gaza after the attack. The bombardment happened at ten in the morning and it set some of the building’s departments on fire, as for instance the training center where about 700 people took refuge. According to UNRWA, two artillery shells and _three white phosphorous_ bombs fell on the complex.” Mentirosos! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/444 "2009-01-16T03:06:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I have my own rules of debate, and I won’t debate with people who insist on strawmanning, i.e. misrepresenting my position. > > Here is the relevant quote from your source: > > I am simply asking you to show me where the IDF made such a claim. However, I never asked you for a cite from the IDF “explicitly saying they switched stories.” > > Please do not misrepresent my position. Thank you. > > P.S. The fact that you cannot back up your claim and instead must resort to distorting my request tends to confirm my suspicion, which is that your source simply fabricated its story. The Nile – not just a river in Egypt. Your rules of debate no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/445 "2009-01-16T03:43:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Here’s the original article as well as the corresponding links to the claims made in it: > > [**Israel’s Re-Revised Story: Attack on UN School was a Malfunction**](http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/11/israels-re-revised-story-attack-on-un-school-was-a-malfunction/) Would you be aware of other sources that would confirm the various elements mentioned in this story, perchance? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/446 "2009-01-16T03:46:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Myself, I’d take UN claims with a watermelon sized grain of salt. But the claims of Israel, one party of the conflict, and who has every interest in denying having done anything wrong should be taken at face value? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/447 "2009-01-16T03:54:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But the claims of Israel, one party of the conflict, and who has every interest in denying having done anything wrong should be taken at face value? > [@Me](#): > > Investigations can and should be carried out. We don’t have enough information to judge, at present. And the UN’s word, as always, is highly suspect. I’d hope that it isn’t too much to ask that we wait to see what the data says before we rush to judgment. > [@also me](#): > > Now, it may certainly turn out to be that due to the fog of war, Israeli shells landed outside the school in error. In which case it is a absolute tragedy. There may also have been confusion in the military hierarchy as to what the best, current intelligence stated about the attack. But as of yet I’ve seen no credible evidence that the UNRWA’s claims are accurate. I’m more than willing to retract that, but lacking confirmation from even one of the other members supposedly present at the briefing, my bullshit detector is redlining. Come on. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/448 "2009-01-16T04:18:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The Nile – not just a river in Egypt. > > Your rules of debate no doubt. :shrug: I have no idea what your point is. I’m simply asking for support for this claim: > [@](#): > > The IDF even claimed to have video footage to back up its claims, though it turned out to be over a year old and from a different school in a different city. If the IDF really made such a claim, there ought to be objective proof out there. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/449 "2009-01-16T10:26:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Investigations can and should be carried out. We don’t have enough information to judge, at present. And the UN’s word, as always, is highly suspect. I’d hope that it isn’t too much to ask that we wait to see what the data says before we rush to judgment. Who is supposed to do the investigations? No foreign journalists can get in and Israel seems to be doing a pretty good job of bombing the UN people - the other body that could do an impartial investigation - that are there. Oh I get it, the Israelis can do they’re own investigation and we then have to accept their conclusion without question. Still no rebuttal/defence of the use of white phosphorus which (IIRC) I mention on the previous page and now others are picking up on. There’s also those pesky claims of the use of cluster bombs, which would make a mockery of the claims of that Israel are not being indiscriminate in their bombing. Of course the main argument against them having used cluster bombs is that what people have seen is actually white phosphorus, which is hardly much better. See here for that: [http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/cluster-bombs-i.html](http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/cluster-bombs-i.html) But why should we doubt the use of cluster bombs, they used them in Lebanon two years ago. They’ve suddenly had a change of heart? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/450 "2009-01-16T13:07:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Would you be aware of other sources that would confirm the various elements mentioned in this story, perchance? Sure. From an Israeli newspaper to boot – self-hating Israelis no doubt. [UN: IDF officers admitted there was no gunfire from Gaza school which was shelled](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html) > [@](#): > > The United Nations is claiming Israeli military officers have admitted there was no Palestinian gunfire emanating from inside an UNRWA school in Gaza which was shelled by an IDF tank. > > Dozens of Palestinians were killed in the shelling. > > In addition, UNRWA Thursday announced it will cease activities in the Strip due to the death of an UNRWA staffer in an IDF shelling during Thursday morning’s humanitarian hiatus. > > UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness told Haaretz yesterday that the army had conceded wrongdoing. > > “In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, **they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school** ,” Gunness said. “ **The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional.** ” > > **He noted that all the footage released by the IDF of militants firing from inside the school was from 2007 and not from the incident itself**. > > “There are no up-to-date photos,” Gunness said. “In 2007, we abandoned the site and only then did the militants take it over.” – my highlights…verifying the two IDF lies reported on the original article posted: 1-No Palestinian gunfire coming from the school 2-Old footage provided in a blatant though futile attempt to back their lies. Want more? Start with this one: [Rice cautions Israel over IDF shelling of UN facilities in Gaza](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055954.html) > [@](#): > > Rice said she had spoken on Thursday to both **Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak as well as Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni** after the attack on the facility. > > “ **There is great concern on their part. It was an error that happened,** ” she added. and confirm here: [UN headquarters in Gaza hit by Israeli ‘white phosphorus’ shells](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5521925.ece) > [@](#): > > Mr Ban expressed his “strong protest and outrage” at the shelling and demanded an investigation, only to be told by apologetic Israeli leaders that their forces had been returning fire from within the UN compound. > > “ **The Israeli forces were attacked from there and their response was severe,** ” **Ehud Olmert** , the Prime Minister, told the UN chief, according to a statement released by his office. – bolding mine. Seems they can’t get their stories straight. * * * **amanset** , as you can see I’ve followed up on your questions and posted further evidence of the use of white phosphorous – just look at that last link. The issue _continues_ to be ignored – perhaps they are waiting for further talking points on this matter? From link: > [@](#): > > Chris Gunness, a UNRWA spokesman, said that the building had been used to shelter hundreds of people fleeing Israel’s 20-day offensive in Gaza. He said that pallets with supplies desperately needed by Palestinians in Gaza were on fire. > > “What more stark symbolism do you need?” he said. “ **You can’t put out white phosphorus with traditional methods such as fire extinguishers. You need sand, we don’t have sand.** ” > > **The Israeli military has denied using white phosphorus shells in the Gaza offensive, although an investigation by The Times has revealed that dozens of Palestinians in Gaza have sustained serious injuries from the substance, which burns at extremely high temperatures.** – bolding mine. Seriously, I find the Apology Game that is being “played” here quite repulsive. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/451 "2009-01-16T14:02:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Still no rebuttal/defence of the use of white phosphorus Try hitting control-F and then typing in “As for WP”. Can’t say enough about reading the threads you post in. > [@amanset](#): > > Of course the main argument against them having used cluster bombs is that what people have seen is actually white phosphorus, which is hardly much better. See here for that: > > [http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/cluster-bombs-i.html](http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/cluster-bombs-i.html) Can’t get nothin’ past you. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And before it’s mentioned, it’s worth noting that the ‘cluster bombs’ story is also [most likely false.](http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/cluster-bombs-i.html) > [@amanset](#): > > But why should we doubt the use of cluster bombs, they used them in Lebanon two years ago. They’ve suddenly had a change of heart? Well, I suppose if someone is a kneejerk anti-Israel partisan, they won’t doubt it. If you consider that Israel used cluster munitions at the _end_ of the war against Hezbollah and if they’d dropped them now their own troops would have to advance through them? Then the tactical necessity of mining your own troops’ corridor of advance might cause you to question such a claim. In short, that you’d be advancing a position which _made no sense_ might give you pause. You might even realize that without evidence, believing that there have been cluster bombs only betrays someone’s bias and willingness to believe certain things without any supporting proof. Or not. > [@amanset](#): > > Oh I get it, the Israelis can do they’re own investigation and we then have to accept their conclusion without question. Well, I guess if you really want the Israelis can do their own investigation. Of course, nobody has suggested that, but why debate fairly if you can use absurd little bombastic strawmen? Your inexplicable belief that it should be _journalists_ who perform a forensic investigation is… stranger. “We need to analyze this burnt out structure to see if WP was used on it. Quick, get Ted Koppel!” Why don’t you ponder who an objective source might be, and how someone might go about analyzing data. No points awarded for “Send in CNN!” That you’d still want the UN to be involved is telling, especially when in their own story, they’re lying for PR value. "“Three white phosphorus shells have hit the compound and right now the pallets on which we are meant to deliver aid are on fire,” he said. “What more powerful symbol can there be than pallets used for aid being set alight by the fighting? With white phosphorus you cannot put out the flames with water. You need sand and right now there is too much fighting for our staff to get sand.”" When the truth is that after 10-15 minutes, any WP actually used would have been out. But I suppose talking about how the fires that are still burning can only be put out with sand makes much better copy. It’s also interesting how quickly your argument descends into bombastic bluster. Try to imagine what it would be like if the IDF was actually trying to destroy UN positions in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/452 "2009-01-16T14:07:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Seriously, I find the Apology Game that is being “played” here quite repulsive. Actually, after reading this discussion, and some other that popped recently, it came to me that the worst fear of the pro-Israeli poster is that the bubble of self-delusion will burst and once it bursts, it will take with it some of the quite reasonable points made on Israel behalf. Therefore, this notorious and 100% unquestionable support, marked with amazing ability to distort and misrepresent using semantics and language will just go on forever. I just do not see how any of them would at least allow, or acknowledge (mind you, not admit being wrong or, God help us, guilty of misinformation) the other side serious grievances. It’s just hopeless and it translates to my feelings about the ME conflict. Now, my cynical side (with experience to boot) would advise… that’s exactly what the side dominating and controlling the situation WANTS!!! In other words, the goal is that any decent person would conclude - you’re all the same, go on. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/453 "2009-01-16T14:28:38Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Sure. From an Israeli nt ewspaper to boot – self-hating Israelis no doubt. Not only did I already cite it, but as already pointed out it’s a UN claim of a briefing that’s corroborated by nobody else. At all. And of course, the “IDF lies” are only lies if you’re deliberately ignoring the salient facts in order to spew an ignorant screed. Funny that the UN shill didn’t mention that what the IDF actually said was that no, there wasn’t firing coming from the courtyard, there were rockets right next to it which were hit and one shell deviated by the expected margin of error. Wonder why he left the part out about the rockets, and the stray shell eh, eh? You might even notice that the gloss of ‘footage’ was given by Haaretz, and the shill himself referred to pictures, showing that even in the original, there’s no actual claim of any video, let alone a youtube video. Then again… no, you probably don’t. > [@RedFury](#): > > Want more? Start with this one: You desperately try to shoehorn even the minimal facts into your screed. Yes, Israeli sources voiced regret that the UN building was hit. They don’t even mention WP, but apparently apologize for conventional strikes. Nobody disputes that the site was hit. The fact that it was hit has been apologized for. This evidently upsets you. Of course, we can all predict whether or not you’d have been upset if they didn’t apologize. Good setup you’ve got there. > [@RedFury](#): > > and confirm here: > [UN headquarters in Gaza hit by Israeli ‘white phosphorus’ shells](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5521925.ece) Unmitigated distortion. This really is embarrassing even to read, how on Earth can you write this stuff? Nothing was “confirmed.” That’s the exact same fucking statement you gave us to start this mess. Did you think nobody would notice? Maybe if some of the people reading along were really drunk or something… Can’t say enough about sobriety. > [@RedFury](#): > > Seems they can’t get their stories straight. Seems some bias is showing. A microphone is shoved in someone’s face (a known liar, but of course you’ll cite him uncritically if it helps your screed, naturally) before any investigation can be conducted, before the fog of war has even lifted, and lo and behold, there’s confusion over what actually happened. But, obviously, unless the non IDF members knew exactly what happened, just a few hours after it happened, why, they must not be able to “get their stories straight”. > [@RedFury](#): > > The issue _continues_ to be ignored – perhaps they are waiting for further talking points on this matter? Oh, it’s pretty clear who is ignoring what, and who’s spewing talking points. Only in your twisted screed would a post that directly addressed the WP issue be “ignoring” it. But I guess asking you to accurately relate the contents of a thread is an imposition. No time for what actually happened when there’s a screed to be written. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/454 "2009-01-16T14:32:23Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > . Therefore, this notorious and 100% unquestionable support, Yep, self-delusion, bias and distortion is clear, but not in the folks you’re trying to slime with your ignorance. Any honest participant could find quite a few instances in which the US and Israel’s supporters have questioned/disagreed with Israel’s actions or policies. But that doesn’t make good copy, so instead you invent an alternate reality where there is unquestioned support, “notorious” even :rolleyes:. And then you complain about how _other people_ are delusional and relying on distortions to make their case. And you complain about how people use language and meaning to argue against you, echoing the perennial complain that it’d be much easier to hold a debate if people didn’t rebut your incorrect claims. And still, when your massive factual mistakes are pointed out to you, you change the subject and then complain about how you’re being persecuted by people relying on meaning and language to debunk your silly untruths. It’d be sad if it wasn’t quite so vile. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/455 "2009-01-16T14:34:34Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > 2-Old footage provided in a blatant though futile attempt to back their lies. Sheesh. I keep asking for a cite where the IDF misrepresents the “old footage.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/456 "2009-01-16T14:52:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sheesh. I keep asking for a cite where the IDF misrepresents the “old footage.” Actually, let’s do it this way: Please QUOTE the actual lie by the IDF. Presumably, if your claim is correct, there is an IDF spokesman somewhere who said something along the lines of “Here is a video of the incident. As you can see, militants were shooting from the compound in question.” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/457 "2009-01-16T18:36:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Try hitting control-F and then typing in “As for WP”. > Can’t say enough about reading the threads you post in. I’m old school, I don’t really like using contractions apart from the net-wide likes of IIRC. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Can’t get nothin’ past you. > > Well, I suppose if someone is a kneejerk anti-Israel partisan, they won’t doubt it. > > If you consider that Israel used cluster munitions at the _end_ of the war against Hezbollah and if they’d dropped them now their own troops would have to advance through them? Then the tactical necessity of mining your own troops’ corridor of advance might cause you to question such a claim. In short, that you’d be advancing a position which _made no sense_ might give you pause. > You might even realize that without evidence, believing that there have been cluster bombs only betrays someone’s bias and willingness to believe certain things without any supporting proof. > Or not. Just getting it in before anyone else uses it as a rebuttal. It is either white phosphorus or cluster bombs, both of which Israel have used in recent memory and both of which are repugnant, especially with so many civilians around. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, I guess if you really want the Israelis can do their own investigation. > Of course, nobody has suggested that, but why debate fairly if you can use absurd little bombastic strawmen? No it isn’t because the fact is they’re not letting anyone else in. Even aid goes through an airlock-type procedure where they go in one door, unload and then a truck comes from another door and loads up. Who do you suggest should be doing the investigation? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your inexplicable belief that it should be _journalists_ who perform a forensic investigation is… stranger. “We need to analyze this burnt out structure to see if WP was used on it. Quick, get Ted Koppel!” > Why don’t you ponder who an objective source might be, and how someone might go about analyzing data. > No points awarded for “Send in CNN!” Which I never said. I have called for journalists to be allowed in so as to independently verify claims such as the humanitarian situation and the widespread death of innocents. Forgive me if I don’t think that the Israelis will be doing a “forensic” investigation either. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > That you’d still want the UN to be involved is telling, especially when in their own story, they’re lying for PR value. That’s exactly what the UN is there for. Your letting your bias slip. If not the UN then who? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > When the truth is that after 10-15 minutes, any WP actually used would have been out. But I suppose talking about how the fires that are still burning can only be put out with sand makes much better copy. It’s also interesting how quickly your argument descends into bombastic bluster. Try to imagine what it would be like if the IDF was actually trying to destroy UN positions in Gaza. Clearly you’ve never seen what fifteen minutes of fire can do otherwise you’d never use such an idiotic “defence”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/458 "2009-01-16T18:38:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > but as already pointed out it’s a UN claim of a briefing that’s corroborated by nobody else Something you go out of your way to do when it is a claim by the Israelis, obviously. Oh wait, no, the other one … Do you see? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/459 "2009-01-16T18:40:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You desperately try to shoehorn even the minimal facts into your screed. Yes, Israeli sources voiced regret that the UN building was hit. They don’t even mention WP, but apparently apologize for conventional strikes. Nobody disputes that the site was hit. The fact that it was hit has been apologized for. This evidently upsets you. Of course, we can all predict whether or not you’d have been upset if they didn’t apologize. > Good setup you’ve got there. That’s good to know. Apparently apologising gets you out of any mess and cleared of all blame. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/460 "2009-01-16T18:47:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > That’s exactly what the UN is there for. Your letting your bias slip. It’d be funnier if you weren’t serious. I’ve already provided evidence of the UN deliberately covering up that their facilities have been used as shields for Hezbollah while they were demonizing Israel for hitting them, covering up evidence of Hezbollah’s kidnappings of IDF soldiers where UN equipment was found, making an Islamic Jihad rocket maker the headmaster of a UN school and then denying it and instructing the staff at the school not to talk about it when it became public knowledge, etc, etc, etc… And not finding them trustworthy is “bias”. Yeah, I have a bias against known liars with an agenda. That this is somehow objectionable in your mind is… curious. Curiouser and curiouser. > [@amanset](#): > > Clearly you’ve never seen what fifteen minutes of fire can do otherwise you’d never use such an idiotic “defence”. Again, this pablum would be funny if you weren’t serious. The claim wasn’t that the first 15 minutes of fire couldn’t be put out, but that after the WP was already out, the secondary fires couldn’t be put out without sand. It’s a blazingly obvious lie. And one you’ve not only swallowed, eagerly, but you’re now actually calling the truth “idiotic”. Obvious lies in the service of an agenda are fine for you, but pointing them out is “idiotic”. Go figure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=24)