# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/461 "2009-01-16T20:34:31Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > That’s good to know. Apparently apologising gets you out of any mess and cleared of all blame. Indeed. This is an obvious exercise in futility; I mean even when they (Israeli officials, IDF) clearly give a bullshit “explanation” and then have to backtrack to the apologies you speak of, it’s the Fog Of War that’s at fault. :rolleyes: As I said earlier, the brain-washing of many Americans on this issue is simply staggering. Israel simply can’t do any wrong. Period. End Of Story. * * * From the BBC: [Gaza hospital comes under fire](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7833919.stm) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/462 "2009-01-16T20:42:48Z")
[**Press, Banned from War Zone, Reports Growing Evidence of Israel Using White Phosphorus in Gaza**](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003931077) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/463 "2009-01-16T22:26:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Press, Banned from War Zone, Reports Growing Evidence of Israel Using White Phosphorus in Gaza**](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003931077) I read your article and noticed the following: > [@](#): > > Remnants of an Israeli white phosphorus shell, identified by the marking on the outer casing – M825A1 – have been found in the village of Sheikh Ajilin in western Gaza. Witnesses in Gaza said that the shell was fired on January 9 and was taken indoors as evidence. They recalled seeing thick smoke and smelling a strong odour in keeping with the garlic-like smell associated with white phosphorus. Just yesterday, an Israeli friend told me that the M825A1 is actually a smoke round. This [would seem to be correct](http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jah/jah_0461.html). Do you agree with this? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/464 "2009-01-16T22:39:02Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Indeed. This is an obvious exercise in futility; I mean even when they (Israeli officials, IDF) clearly give a bullshit “explanation” Oh yes, obviously bullshit. Why, the UN hasn’t deliberately covered up a terrorist presence at their facilities for, like, at least a couple of years now. > [@RedFury](#): > > and then have to backtrack to the apologies you speak of, it’s the Fog Of War that’s at fault. Well, yes, honest interpreters of the data will admit that, especially right after an event, the fog of war prevents an accurate analysis. Of course, as the only cite you’ve provided for any backtracking is a proven liar who’ll most likely go to prison after his term is up, you’re kinda showing what you’ll use for your partisan screed and what you’ll disregard. I take it that you’re not just rationalizing your bias, and you’ll accept Olmert as a 100% interlocutor of Israeli actions for all other issues, right? Or is this that ‘selective’ epistemology? Why don’t you provide first hand cites from IDF C&C showing any “backtracking”. Any at all. Or are we still stuck on trying to get you to retract your absurd bullshit about youtube videos while you hem and haw and throw up strawmen to avoid admitting that, no, at no point did any IDF member release an outdated youtube video, but you just like the sound of it so you parroted it? > [@RedFury](#): > > As I said earlier, the brain-washing of many Americans on this issue is simply staggering. Israel simply can’t do any wrong. Period. End Of Story. Ah, of course, Americans don’t share your agenda because they’re been brainwashed. That makes it clear. Not that you’re someone who actually is upset when Jews object to being told they should commit suicide to highlight how nasty the Nazis were, or that you will not allow any Israeli self defense unless they use magic ninja commandos who can operate with impunity in the middle of freaking Gaza. Nope, it’s brain washing. Of course, I wish you’d stop spewing your perennial dodge of “Ayieeee, them brainwashed folks say Israel can do no wrong!” when you know full well that even people on this board have indeed taken Israel to task. Or your disgusting GD legal flaming echoing perennial anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about traitorous Jewish fifth columnists… But then again, if we’ve already established that some really rippin’ rhetoric tops the truth for you, eh? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/465 "2009-01-16T23:12:53Z")
By the way, there are rumors that Israel has been making use of a chemical agent known as DHMO which can cause severe tissue damage, burns, and frequently causes death if inhaled. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/466 "2009-01-16T23:30:19Z")
Hydric acid now? Will the atrocities never cease?!? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/467 "2009-01-16T23:53:01Z")
If it’s alright by you, I have a question or two directed your way as well as some personal reflections on this tragic situation, **Finn** : Do you honestly think that this carnage will do the Israelis any good? Or are they not fostering and perpetuating the very things they want to kill? Think about it. That’s all I ask. BTW, I believe I made my position on Gandhi’s world-view quite clear upthread. Including the fact that I disagreed with his ‘suggestion’ and why. **Alessan** appears to have understood me, not sure why you’re having so much trouble yourself – other than to continue to try and smear anyone who opposes your “Hammer of Yahweh” posting style. By now I’ve had ample time to realize you’re offensive and condescending without even trying to anyone who disagrees with you, but still, if you dialed it down a notch or two, perhaps there’s a chance for real dialog. Otherwise what we’re doing here is what “they are doing there” only without the bloodletting. Rather comforting that, but still as pointless as the real bloody affair. Finally, if you have the time, read the following two articles as they both speak to the problem I (and most of the world) have with your nation’s blind support for Israel. From where I’m standing neither one is gaining much of anything from said alliance. [**Self-Deception and the Assault on Gaza**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/self-deception-and-the-as_b_158486.html) [**Obama and the Perils of Gaza**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sandy-tolan/obama-and-the-perils-of-g_b_158540.html) I truly hope you get some sense of perspective as to where I’m coming from and the obvious fact that I am hardly alone in my views – even if we agree to disagree you need to realize that hatred of **anyone** is far from being a motivator for my stance. Don’t believe me? Not much I can do then. Enjoy your evening. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/468 "2009-01-17T00:00:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Just yesterday, an Israeli friend told me that the M825A1 is actually a smoke round. This [would seem to be correct](http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jah/jah_0461.html). > > Do you agree with this? The two statements are not mutually exclusive. It is a smoke round and it uses [white phosphorus to produce the smoke.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm) > [@](#): > > The M825 White Phosphorus (Felt-Wedge) is a 155mm base ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. Using it in a manner to produce smoke for cover in a clear military application is legit. Using it in a manner in which it is clear that a significant number of civilians may be exposed to concentrations strong enough to produce chemical burns is not as kosher. The [charge against](http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/q-israel-s-use-white-phosphorus-gaza) the IDF is that they are doing the latter. > [@](#): > > Israel appears to be using WP as an “obscurant” (a chemical used to hide military operations), a permissible use in principle under international humanitarian law (the laws of war). However, WP also has a significant, incidental, incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire. The potential for harm to civilians is magnified by Gaza’s high population density, among the highest in the world. > > Human Rights Watch believes that the use of WP in densely populated areas of Gaza violates the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in media photographs and viewed by Human Rights Watch researchers on January 9 of air-bursting WP projectiles, which spreads the burning wafers over a wider area, thereby increasing the likelihood of civilian casualties and damage to civilian objects. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/469 "2009-01-17T00:01:20Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Actually, after reading this discussion, and some other that popped recently, it came to me that the worst fear of the pro-Israeli poster is that the bubble of self-delusion will burst and once it bursts, it will take with it some of the quite reasonable points made on Israel behalf. Therefore, this notorious and 100% unquestionable support, marked with amazing ability to distort and misrepresent using semantics and language will just go on forever. I just do not see how any of them would at least allow, or acknowledge (mind you, not admit being wrong or, God help us, guilty of misinformation) the other side serious grievances. … You are right. I have noticed this dilemma before, which is common in the voices of Israel inhabiting the US. They’ve sunk their stock into falsehood, when the age of information is in full swing. That is probably not a good move. What to do, what to do? There are 2 options: - Come clean and “We did it for Israel” might go down ok with the general public; or - Bed down in ever wilder and more obvious deceptions to cover up the originals. Having taken option 2 there is a critical mass building up day by day. How will it end? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/470 "2009-01-17T00:22:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Using it in a manner to produce smoke for cover in a clear military application is legit. Using it in a manner in which it is clear that a significant number of civilians may be exposed to concentrations strong enough to produce chemical burns is not as kosher. Not according to the Red Cross’ head of their mines-arms unit. [ > [@](#): > > The International Committee of the Red Cross urged Israel to exercise “extreme caution” in using the incendiary agent, which is used to illuminate targets at night or create a smoke screen for day attacks, said Peter Herby, the head of the organization’s mines-arms unit. > > “In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.” > > […] > > Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or knowingly putting civilians at risk. > > However, Herby said evidence is still limited because of the difficulties of gaining access to Gaza, where Palestinian health officials say more than 900 people have been killed and 4,250 wounded since Israel launched its offensive late last month. The operation aims to halt years of Palestinian rocket attacks over the border. ]([The Jerusalem Post - All News from the Middle East, Israel, and the Jewish World](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231866575577&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)) > [@RedFury](#): > > Do you honestly think that this carnage will do the Israelis any good? Or are they not fostering and perpetuating the very things they want to kill? Now, see, ironically enough if I wasn’t too busy dealing with the avalanche of ‘selective epistemology’, factual errors and empty rhetorical spew that you provide, a discussion of that sort might be possible. While I’m pretty much forced to relentlessly correct your distortions, that’s going to be the meat of my argument by necessity. Don’t like it? Play fair. For instance: > [@RedFury](#): > > your nation’s blind support for Israel. You claim you want rational discussion, and then drop such obviously false-to-facts rhetorical garbage that I don’t feel I can let it go without comment. The US has a history of supporting Israel, it also has a history of opposing specific Israeli actions. When the distortions of your argument force me to constantly stop and try to make you play straight, it’s unreasonable to expect me to then treat your argument as a good faith rational analysis of the facts rather than a deceptive bit of distortion. I’d happily discuss long term strategy with, say, **DSeid** , even though he and I disagree on his ‘snapping turtle’ strategy. That’s largely because he’s dedicated to busting myths on both ‘sides’, rather than propagating myths that help his ‘side’. Play straight, and maybe then you can have your wish of an actual, honest debate. But for that, it requires honest debating. > [@RedFury](#): > > Don’t believe me? No, I’m sure you have absolutely nothing against those brainwashed, dual loyalty having fifth columnists. Of course. See, this is part of what I mean. You can’t talk about how those who have differing views are “brainwashed” and use charges which echo classic anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of traitorous dual loyalty while you accuse people of treason punishable by death… and then claim that your argument isn’t hateful and you just want a rational discussion of strategy and tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/471 "2009-01-17T00:23:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The two statements are not mutually exclusive. It is a smoke round and it uses [white phosphorus to produce the smoke.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm) > > Using it in a manner to produce smoke for cover in a clear military application is legit. Using it in a manner in which it is clear that a significant number of civilians may be exposed to concentrations strong enough to produce chemical burns is not as kosher. The [charge against](http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/q-israel-s-use-white-phosphorus-gaza) the IDF is that they are doing the latter. This stikes me as a pretty _de minimis_ allegation. There is no evidence it is not being used for its intended purpose. The reason white phosphorus is “bad” is because it burns people, when used as an anti-personnel weapon. A smoke round may _use_ white phosphorus, but it isn’t, from the information provided, used in such a manner as to _kill_ people running across it. From your link, it states that the purpose of a smoke round is that it “obscures enemy vision or screens maneuvering elements” [emphasis added]. In short, it is expected that _your own soldiers_ will be running through the area seeded by the smoke round. From the allegation: > [@](#): > > Israel appears to be using WP as an “obscurant” (a chemical used to hide military operations), a permissible use in principle under international humanitarian law (the laws of war). However, WP also has a significant, incidental, incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire. The potential for harm to civilians is magnified by Gaza’s high population density, among the highest in the world. > > Human Rights Watch believes that the use of WP in densely populated areas of Gaza violates the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life. In short, HRW isn’t arguing that Israel is using an “illegal weapon” and it isn’t arguing that Israel is _deliberately_ using an _admittedly legal_ weapon for the wrongful purpose of roasting civilians. What it is arguing is that _any_ use of this device is “wrongful” _in its opinion_ because its use may endanger civilians in such a densely populated area, and _any_ risk to civilians is “wrongful” if it can be “feasibly” prevented. The key words in their statement are “believes” and “feasible precautions”. This is just another re-iteration of the notion that waging war at _all_ in Gaza is “wrongful”. Surely using any weapon under those circumstances is just as “wrongful”, if not moreso, than using a signalling device designed for use in proximity to one’s own soldiers that “may” have a “significant, incidental, incendiary effect”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/472 "2009-01-17T00:41:07Z")
Indeed it may be that WP is being used in a completely appropriate manner. I have my identified biases and believe that the usage is legit unless proven otherwise. But if they are using it then they should be forthcoming about it. And about how it is being used and where. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/473 "2009-01-17T00:49:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Indeed it may be that WP is being used in a completely appropriate manner. I have my identified biases and believe that the usage is legit unless proven otherwise. But if they are using it then they should be forthcoming about it. And about how it is being used and where. I don’t really agree. Why should a military force be expected, beyond a bare rebuttal of allegations of illegal acts, to go into any detail about _ongoing_ military actions? What Israel said, allegedly, was as follows: > [@](#): > > The Geneva Convention of 1980 proscribes the use of white phosphorus as a weapon of war in civilian areas, although it can be used to create a smokescreen. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) said today that all weapons used in Gaza were “within the scope of international law”. Which, as it turns out, appears to be quite correct. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/474 "2009-01-17T01:31:05Z")
As a matter of ethics you may be right. But Israel is foolish to completely discount the importance of appearances. They have allowed it to be spun as a denial of use of the agent at all. If it turns out that instead they were using it, but using it completely appropriately, the focus will be instead on the fact that they were using it at all after having “denied” it. The fact that its use was appropriate will be lost by mostly all. Be straightforward to begin with and the opportunity to spin appropriate WP use into a “war crime” is diminished. Let’s be real. If an Israeli official really said [this,](http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=4785743) then my credulity is strained. > [@](#): > > “This is what we call a quiet shell - it is empty, it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. There is nothing inside it.” And stating [this](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1231774442398) > [@](#): > > The IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi on Tuesday denied allegations that the army was using white phosphorous against Palestinian gunmen in Gaza. > > “The IDF acts only in accordance with what is permitted by international law and does not use white phosphorous,” Ashkenazi told the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee in response to a query by Meretz MK Zehava Gal-On. sets you up for looking guilty if and when legitimate use of WP is proven. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/475 "2009-01-17T02:12:18Z")
The first I’d have to question, as it’s an unnamed spokescritter. It sounds more like a reporter cornered an IDF soldier/officer and grilled them and they lied rather poorly. The second at least has a specific attribution and does sound like he should have added “… as an anti-personnel weapon”. You’re right, denials of that sort end up sounding flimsy and play into the hands of the ‘Ayieee, atrocities!’ folks. “No comment” would have been a much better response, or even “we won’t comment on details of ongoing military actions” or even “none of our ongoing military actions have violated the laws of international combat, but we will not comment on their specifics while the war is still ongoing.” To be fair (I don’t have the cites right now, but I’ll try to track them down), some IDF spokescritters have said pretty much that, that they’re not giving any specific information but that they’re denying they’ve violated the laws of war. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/476 "2009-01-17T02:48:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The two statements are not mutually exclusive. It is a smoke round and it uses [white phosphorus to produce the smoke.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm) > > Using it in a manner to produce smoke for cover in a clear military application is legit. Using it in a manner in which it is clear that a significant number of civilians may be exposed to concentrations strong enough to produce chemical burns is not as kosher. The [charge against](http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/q-israel-s-use-white-phosphorus-gaza) the IDF is that they are doing the latter. I basically agree with this, but it seems like the the issue is basically the same old story which folks like **Finnagain** have been complaining about, which is that at the end of the day, Israel’s detractors would basically deny Israel the right of self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/477 "2009-01-21T13:11:50Z")
Israel to probe phosphorus claims [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/7841999.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7841999.stm) Includes a very interesting image: [![](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45397000/jpg/_45397735_006735954.jpg) ](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45397000/jpg/_45397735_006735954.jpg) And just to expand on something mentione din that story: > **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/478 "2009-01-21T20:46:49Z")
A bit [more detail](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057361.html) about the status of the probe. > [@](#): > > According to senior army officers, the IDF used two phosphorus-based weapons in Gaza. One, the sources said, actually contains almost no phosphorus. These are simple smoke bombs - 155mm artillery shells - with a trace of phosphorus to ignite them. > > Alkalai’s probe is thus focusing on the second type: phosphorus shells, either 81mm or 120mm, that are fired from mortar guns. About 200 such shells were fired during the recent fighting, and of these, according to the probe’s initial findings, almost 180 were fired at orchards in which gunmen and rocket-launching crews were taking cover. > > The one problematic incident was the reserve paratroops brigade that fired about 20 such shells in a built-up area of Beit Lahiya. Many international organizations say phosphorus shells should not be used in heavily populated areas. The brigade’s officers, however, say the shells were fired only at places that had been positively identified as sources of enemy fire. > > The 120mm shells, a recent acquisition, have a computerized targeting system attached to a GPS. Brigade commanders say they were very effective, but they were also responsible for two very serious mishaps: a strike on a UNRWA school that killed 42 Palestinians and a friendly fire incident that seriously wounded two officers. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/479 "2009-01-22T14:45:25Z")
This thread seems the best place to put [this.](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3660423,00.html) Acknowledged - biased source and unconfirmed information. > [@](#): > > talian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza’s Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel’s Operation Cast Lead. > > “The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter,” according to the newspaper article. … > > … Despite the claims, the IDF stood behind its estimate that between 1,100 to 1,200 people were killed in the Strip during the fighting, more than two-thirds of them Hamas members. > > The army initially believed that the number of civilian casualties was higher, as many Hamas men walked outside their houses dressed in civilian clothes, leaving their weapons at home. > > Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, who is in change of the emergency department at the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, denied the figures presented by the Italian paper. … > > … A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper’s reporter, “Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn’t do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes.” > > The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas’ exaggerated figures, “We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?” > > These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. “Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men,” the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper. > > These new figures must be treated with caution especially in light of the fact that various official sources in the Gaza Strip, including United Nations and Red Cross officials, have reported that more than 1,300 people were killed and some 5,000 wounded during the three weeks of fighting in the coastal strip. Palestinian sources claim that three-quarters of the dead were unarmed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/480 "2009-01-22T21:25:48Z")
[An update](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the above story. > [@](#): > > Israeli defense officials on Thursday said there were around 1,300 Palestinians killed during the fighting in Gaza and that a majority of them were Hamas operatives. > > Italian media confirms Gazan medic’s report that only 500 killed in operation, mostly Hamas gunmen > > The IDF’s Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration has already compiled a list with 900 names of Palestinians killed during the operation, out of which 750 are believed to be Hamas operatives. > > The IDF estimated that two-thirds of those killed were gunmen affiliated with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror factions. At least 500 are believed to have been members of Hamas’s military wing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=25)