# American civilians are legitimate targets in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819 "2009-01-04T16:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/161 "2009-01-05T05:18:46Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Care to explain why? Are you seriously saying that Hamas has the culpability of a five-year-old and that we should discount the intended effect of a weapon entirely compared to its actual effect? > > So if someone shoots at you, and misses, it’s no big deal–they didn’t hurt you even as much as a kick in the shins? I’m saying that Hamas is about the same level of threat to Israel as a 5-year-old is to an adult. I’m saying that Hamas can’t really _hurt_ Israel. The rocketing is a nuisance, but it’s not a sufficient threat to justify the response. Israel has now killed something like 12 times as many civilians in the last week as Hamas rockets have killed in the last 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/162 "2009-01-05T05:20:21Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > What if the 5 year old is kicking the head of state? That would be funny as hell. Even better than the shoe. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/163 "2009-01-05T05:20:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying that Hamas is about the same level of threat to Israel as a 5-year-old is to an adult. I’m saying that Hamas can’t really _hurt_ Israel. The rocketing is a nuisance, but it’s not a sufficient threat to justify the response. Israel has now killed something like 12 times as many civilians in the last week as Hamas rockets have killed in the last 8 years. And you’d therefore change your tune if Hamas was managing to actually kill civilians in significant numbers? No judgement on intentions or effect? Bonus question: What exactly do you think Hamas is trying to accomplish by firing rockets that aren’t, apparently, killing much of anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/164 "2009-01-05T05:23:35Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > And you’d therefore change your tune if Hamas was managing to actually kill civilians in significant numbers? No judgement on intentions or effect? That’s correct. > [@](#): > > Bonus question: What exactly do you think Hamas is trying to accomplish by firing rockets that aren’t, apparently, killing much of anyone? Expressing impotent rage. It’s basically the same reason convicts throw cups of piss at the guards. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/165 "2009-01-05T05:24:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m saying that Hamas is about the same level of threat to Israel as a 5-year-old is to an adult. I’m saying that Hamas can’t really _hurt_ Israel. The rocketing is a nuisance, but it’s not a sufficient threat to justify the response. Israel has now killed something like 12 times as many civilians in the last week as Hamas rockets have killed in the last 8 years. Yeah, it’s called massive retaliation. I think it’s a pretty good strategy against an enemy that can’t destroy you but can continue to annoy you. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/166 "2009-01-05T05:24:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My analogy is more accurate. The chance that a five-year-old child will kill someone by kicking them in the shins is practically nil. The same cannot be said about Hamas’ rockets. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/167 "2009-01-05T05:25:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I can’t say I agree with this either, although I think we’d both agree that it’s in the best interests of most states to act with a pretty high degree of ethics most of the time (lest they make a situation where the best interest of another state is kicking their butt). Yeah, that’s where the idea of “maximizing state interests” comes in–the reactions of “another state” are factored in. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/168 "2009-01-05T05:27:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If a 5-year-old kicks you in the shin, are you justified in beating him unconscious? No, because you could stop him with less. I’d be interested in seeing your answer to the other questions I’ve posed to you, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/169 "2009-01-05T05:29:15Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The chance that a five-year-old child will kill someone by kicking them in the shins is practically nil. The same cannot be said about Hamas’ rockets. But the insinuation is that Hamas rockets are somehow an existential threat to Israel. They aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/170 "2009-01-05T05:29:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My analogy is more accurate. Not even close. What is wrong with **Zeriel’s**? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/171 "2009-01-05T05:29:40Z")
The 5-year-old analogy is beyond stupid. A 5-year old, by all standards of law, is not capable of distinguishing right from wrong. This has nothing to do with physical capability, but about moral culpability. Hamas is an adult organization fully capable of making moral decisions. \*\*Dio \*\*needs to provide some actual reasoning rather than these ridiculous statements. Don’t fall into the trap of trying to offer alternative analogies. Make \*\*Dio \*\*back up the statements he is making and justify the analogy his is offering. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/172 "2009-01-05T05:31:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the insinuation is that Hamas rockets are somehow an existential threat to Israel. They aren’t. Give us a cite to show that “attack” has to be an existential threat. Does an act of war have to be existential threat? If not, then let’s call it an act of war instead of an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/173 "2009-01-05T05:36:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, because you could stop him with less. > > I’d be interested in seeing your answer to the other questions I’ve posed to you, though. I just scrolled back twice through this entire thread and I can’t find a post where you asked me any questions. What questions are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/174 "2009-01-05T05:37:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not even close. What is wrong with **Zeriel’s**? Already answered. The threat level. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/175 "2009-01-05T05:38:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the insinuation is that Hamas rockets are somehow an existential threat to Israel. They aren’t. So, the only justification that Israel would have were if Hamas was a threat to their very existence? Don’t you think that the state of Israel has an obligation to it’s citizenry to take action so that bombs don’t come falling out of the sky? Especially since they know where they’re coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/176 "2009-01-05T05:39:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the insinuation is that Hamas rockets are somehow an existential threat to Israel. They aren’t. They _are_ an existential threat to Israeli citizens. Your analogy totally breaks down because it comes with the assumption that a 5-year-old is basically innocent and easily restrained. Hamas is neither. I am not unsympathetic to your position. Hamas fires rockets and Israel responds with a ground offensive which, IMO, plays into Hamas’ strengths. But Hamas is _trying to kill Israeli citizens_ and even if it is doing a piss-poor job at it Israel must respond. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/177 "2009-01-05T05:41:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Give us a cite to show that “attack” has to be an existential threat. How else can it possibly be defined? How can it be said that an entity is being “attacked” if it has no possibility of injury? Israel _as a state_ is not in any jeopardy from the rockets, so it’s improper to say that the “Israel” is being attacked. That’s ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Does an act of war have to be existential threat In my opinion, yes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/178 "2009-01-05T05:45:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just scrolled back twice through this entire thread and I can’t find a post where you asked me any questions. What questions are you referring to? The posts were 118 and 119. Granted that that there are no question marks, but I was hoping to see your responses to my responses. The first one went to your characterization of 911 not being an attack on the U.S.: [QUOTE=magellan01] I’d love to hear the logic behind this. [/QUOTE] Here’s the other, having to do with your claim that “Collateral damage is an intentional outcome.”: [QUOTE=magellan01] No it’s not. It’s damage that one may be willing to accept above and beyond the intended damage. But the damage could reach that level or not come near it. Collateral damage is damage outside the scope of the intended target. You can’t jut equate them. Also, in this case, Israel has sought to minimize collateral damage by calling homes and sending in some type of warning bombs before the real ones come. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/179 "2009-01-05T05:52:56Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > **newcomer** , can we take a look at the church web site you posted it on? And do you plan to amend parts of it? Starting with: > > > [@](#): > > > > For centuries there was a country called Palestine and in one letter the British declared it the “national home of the Jewish people”. Probably not a good idea, **razncain** , although I can understand the impulse. We don’t want accidentally-alerted folks coming over just to gawk at us (although joining and participating is welcome), and it behooves us to not go over to other communities to gawk at them. Welcome to the SDMB, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819/180 "2009-01-05T05:56:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The posts were 118 and 119. Granted that that there are no question marks, but I was hoping to see your responses to my responses. > > The first one went to your characterization of 911 not being an attack on the U.S.: As with Israel, it was not any kind of serious attack on the US as a state. It was not a military action. It was just a single (albeit massive) criminal act. > [@](#): > > Here’s the other, having to do with your claim that “Collateral damage is an intentional outcome.”: That’s just a speech, not a question. My short answer is that if you know collateral damage will occur if you do X, but you do X anyway, then that collateral damage becomes intentional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilians-are-legitimate-targets-in-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/479819.md?page=10)