# American Civilization=Roman Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726 "2011-06-08T12:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/41 "2011-06-09T03:23:50Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m just going to come right out and say that I’m a conservative who believes in capitalism, and thinks that those who actually work are real Americans, and thinks that the welfare class is NOT helping the country. What’s really hurting the country is looting by the rich and powerful. And fomenting class warfare between the poor and middle class is one of their chief weapons. Ironically, huge income disparities between the rich and everyone else was the beginning of the end for the Roman Republic. It provided fertile ground for Marius’ populist demagoguery and Sulla’s reactionary crack-down. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/42 "2011-06-09T03:30:21Z")
I’m going to take a stab and say that most of these people who use the welfare system are part of what is known as the [Entitlement Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_entitlement), and it’s these people I really can’t stand. ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/43 "2011-06-09T03:40:31Z")
I can’t decide which Roman leader Obama is most similar to. This is a question that I (and even my favoritest Roman History/Latin professor) wrangled with back when you people had your election. I decided on Tiberius Gracchus, given his background from the oppressed (I.e., black/plebeian) class, and his populist/socialist leanings. At least in comparison to the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/44 "2011-06-09T03:59:34Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, when was there not a growing gap between rich and poor? > > . The OP is correct on this point. For a very long time this gap had been narrowing. During the last two decades at least (maybe three, I didn’t look it up), it widened massively (and though not to the same extent, not only in the USA but in all industrialized nations). If I’m not mistaken, in the USA, the richest 1% own now a larger percentage of the total worth than they did in the 1920s. People with a low income (and even the middle class) see the raise of their income crawling well below the raise of the GDP, or even stagnating, while the very high incomes are skyrocketting. This is definitely a significant shift in the social fabric. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/45 "2011-06-09T04:01:11Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m going to take a stab and say that most of these people who use the welfare system are part of what is known as the [Entitlement Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_entitlement), and it’s these people I really can’t stand. A telling quote from your link: > [@](#): > > Many citizens worked long and productive years, seeing large chunks deducted from their paycheck every week, in anticipation of reaping well deserved benefits when they retire. For the government to renege on the underlying social contract would be unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/46 "2011-06-09T04:01:14Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m going to take a stab and say that most of these people who use the welfare system are part of what is known as the [Entitlement Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_entitlement), and it’s these people I really can’t stand. These people by and large do not exist. Not in any meaningful way, not in a way that has any sort of influence on society at large. You’re being purposefully misinformed and misdirected. The welfare queen is a manufactured myth. The grand majority of people on welfare are people who \*need \*the help for one reason or another. I’m sure there are some small time grifters here and there, but if one just doesn’t want to work there are much easier and profitable ways to make illegitimate scratch than to jump through government hoops. Food stamps don’t buy steak. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/47 "2011-06-09T04:04:25Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m just going to come right out and say that I’m a conservative who believes in capitalism, and thinks that those who actually work are real Americans, and thinks that the welfare class is NOT helping the country. I happen to be pro-choice, regardless of what you leftist wingnuts may or may not think. I’m only bouncing thoughts and ideas off of others to get their perspective on any given matter. America doesn’t belong to you. The people you hate are as much Real Americans as you are and this is their country too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/48 "2011-06-09T04:45:58Z")
The USA is modeled on Rome, among other republics. Civil war between the haves and have nots led to permanent dictatorship with a Senate for show. The US government has been accumulating power in the executive branch at an alarming rate since 9/11. I’ve been saying this since 2002. As for depressions, they used to be a regular feature of the economy and the Great Depression was worse because we had become so much better off and so much further interconnected that the economic collapse was that much worse. In 2008 Congress granted the executive extraordinary powers to avoid another Great Depression. And as bad as the economy now is, the worst in my lifetime, this prolonged downturn has not turned into anything like the Great Depression. Yet. Failure to extend the debt limit may do exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/49 "2011-06-09T04:47:50Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Let’s face facts, we’re a mostly military society. We didn’t get the country we have through negotiation and diplomacy, we gained it through force and bloodshed. We EARNED this land, we didn’t barter for it. This isn’t true for the majority of land that’s now the United States. We really did get most of it through negotiation and outright buying of land. Unless you’re talking about how we treated the Native Americans, in which case, yeah, we used a lot of force and bloodshed. Just not really in ways that make you proud to be an American. Territory that is now part of the 50 states which we acquired through purchase or negotiation: [ul] [li]The Louisiana Purchase[/li][li]West Florida[/li][li]Red River Basin[/li][li]East Florida[/li][li]Finalizing the Canadian border (The Webster-Ashburton Treaty, considered a “win” for both sides)[/li][li]The Oregon Territory[/li][li]Alaska[/li][/ul]There’s also the Gadsden Purchase, which I didn’t include since while we did pay Mexico for it we really didn’t give them a choice in the matter. And there are two “we didn’t fight in a technical sense” in the annexations of Texas and Hawaii where the United States didn’t acquire them directly through force but through a more indirect conflict. I wouldn’t count those as bartered for, but we certainly didn’t conquer those three either. I dunno how that relates to the Romans though. Would Texas and Hawaii be like those city-states that voluntarily joined with Rome? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/50 "2011-06-09T05:14:14Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I thought Theodosius was to be considered one of history’s biggest villains! Not for his religion though, but his politics and their murderous results. Maybe I have it wrong. Because of the Massacre of Thessalonica? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/51 "2011-06-09T05:32:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Economic restructuring. Dracula provides cardiovascular fluid pressure reduction through traumatic nutritive exsanguination. The treatment vectors the organic systems in the direction of motile stasis and entropic ambient-temperature equilibrization. (Allowance must be made for anomalous instances of spontaneous pseudorevivification and hemophage state-replication.) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/52 "2011-06-09T12:15:39Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m going to take a stab and say that most of these people who use the welfare system are part of what is known as the [Entitlement Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_entitlement), and it’s these people I really can’t stand. Is the entitlement culture the culture of people that feel entitled to think the poor are just a waste of organic material? You do sound very much entitled. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/53 "2011-06-09T13:59:50Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Is the entitlement culture the culture of people that feel entitled to think the poor are just a waste of organic material? > You do sound very much entitled. "I think the country should be run solely for the benefit of people who are like me. The term I use for people who disagree with this is ‘entitled’. The term I use for this overall policy is ‘hilariously ironic’." ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/54 "2011-06-09T14:08:50Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m just going to come right out and say that I’m a conservative who believes in capitalism, and **thinks that those who actually work are real Americans,** and thinks that the welfare class is NOT helping the country. I happen to be pro-choice, regardless of what you leftist wingnuts may or may not think. I’m only bouncing thoughts and ideas off of others to get their perspective on any given matter. Like illegal immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/55 "2011-06-09T14:57:48Z")
Right. The biggest problem in this country is that the rich are forced to give away so much of their well-earned money. That argument might have made sense back when marginal tax rates on the highest incomes were 90%. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/56 "2011-06-10T02:04:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because of the Massacre of Thessalonica? That wasn’t his most shining moment, but I was thinking more of his religious persecutions. Here’s a Theodosius quote from (pg 512 of my version of) The Decline and Fall of the Roman Emporer: > [@](#): > > It is our pleasure [such is the Imperial style] that all the nations which are governed by our clemency and moderation should steadfastly adhere to the religion which was taught by St. Peter to the Romans… According to the discipline of the apostles and the doctrine of the gospel, let us believe the sole deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; under an equal majesty and a pious Trinity. We authorize the followers of this doctrine to assume the title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of Heretics; and declare that their conventicles shall no longer usurp the repsectable appellation of churches. Besides the condemnation of divine justice, they must expect to suffer the severe penalties which our authority, guided by heavenly wisdom, shall think proper to inflict upon them. State religion, accompanied by persecution of all other religions. What kind of punishments did he think proper to inflict? From [here](http://community-2.webtv.net/tales_of_the_western_world/RLCONSTANTIUSTO/): > [@](#): > > “Let superstition cease and the insanity of sacrifices be abolished. Whoever has dared in the face of the law of the divine prince, our father, to make sacrifices, shall have appropriate penalty, and immediate sentence dealt to him.” > [@](#): > > “It is decreed that in all places and all cities the temples should be closed at once, and after a general warning, the opportunity of sinning be taken from the wicked. We decree also that we shall cease from making sacrifices. And if anyone has committed such a crime, let him be stricken with the avenging sword. And we decree that the property of the one executed shall be claimed by the city, and that rulers of the provinces be punished in the same way, if they neglect to punish such crimes.” > [@](#): > > “We order that all found guilty of attending sacrifices or of worshipping idols shall suffer capital punishment.” > [@](#): > > Addressing those who claimed to foretell the future and those who wished to know it, the law declared “let the curiosity to know the future be silenced for all forever”. The burning stake or the iron comb, an implement of torture and death, awaited those who divined the future. Its one hell of a precedent considering where religious persecution went from there. Theodosius can probably be blamed for more deaths than a certain 20th century European maniac who was deeply into religious persecution. In terms of this discussion, I bet you could find plenty of zealots in this country who would get behind such ‘Christian Nation’-style persecution, though thankfully the actual situation today is far from Theodosius’ empire. Elsewhere in Decline and Fall I remember Theodosius being described as “The Author of Discrimination” among other negative attributes, but I haven’t found that one again so far. I’ll keep looking. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/57 "2011-06-10T03:14:44Z")
He did outlaw paganism, but in practice, I don’t know how many people actually were killed during the persecution of paganism. Saying that he killed more people than Hitler is a stretch. And I don’t see how his outlawing of paganism makes him one of history’s biggest villains (except, I guess, to pagans) Marcus Aurelius launched a similar persecution of Christians, and he’s generally considered one of the “good Emperors” ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/58 "2011-06-10T05:03:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He did outlaw paganism, but in practice, I don’t know how many people actually were killed during the persecution of paganism. Saying that he killed more people than Hitler is a stretch. And I don’t see how his outlawing of paganism makes him one of history’s biggest villains (except, I guess, to pagans) Marcus Aurelius launched a similar persecution of Christians, and he’s generally considered one of the “good Emperors” I’ve heard that- over centuries- something like 100 million pagans were murdered. The whole culture was destroyed. It isn’t that I am or want to be a pagan, but dayum that’s a lot of killings. Theodosius was the last emperor of the whole empire. It was always falling apart during/after him. Part of the reason I think is the autocrat turning the civilization against itself. No matter who wins, Rome loses. And it did! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/59 "2011-06-10T05:06:43Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’ve heard that- over centuries- something like 100 million pagans were murdered. How many centuries? [The whole population of the Roman Empire never got above 100 million, probably much less.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#Demography) ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/60 "2011-06-10T05:16:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many centuries? [The whole population of the Roman Empire never got above 100 million, probably much less.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#Demography) A dozen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=4)