# American Civilization=Roman Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726 "2011-06-08T12:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/61 "2011-06-10T05:25:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > A dozen? Paganism was gone in all of Europe by 1400 after the crusades against Prussia by the Teutonic Knights. And the main goals of these crusades was to convert not to genocide. These numbers are as laughable as the “25 million witches killed” number trotted out by anti-Catholic fanatics (ironically including both rabid ideological atheists and Jack Chick) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/62 "2011-06-10T05:38:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Paganism was gone in all of Europe by 1400 after the crusades against Prussia by the Teutonic Knights. And the main goals of these crusades was to convert not to genocide. These numbers are as laughable as the “25 million witches killed” number trotted out by anti-Catholic fanatics (ironically including both rabid ideological atheists and Jack Chick) [That is a bit high . . .](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_Early_Modern_Europe) > [@](#): > > The witch trials originated in south-eastern France during the fourteenth century, before spreading through central Europe and then into other parts of the continent and also amongst European colonies in North America. While early trials fall still within the Late Medieval period, the peak of the witch hunt was between 1580 and 1630. The last known trial occurred in 1782.[2] Amongst the most well known of these trials was the Scottish North Berwick witch trials, Swedish Torsåker witch trials and the American Salem witch trials. Among the largest and most notable was the Trier witch trials (1581–1593), the Fulda witch trials (1603–1606), the Würzburg witch trial (1626–1631) and the Bamberg witch trials (1626–1631). **Over the entire duration of the phenomenon of some four centuries, an estimated total of 40,000 to 60,000 people were executed.** Furthermore, recently declassified Hell archives prove only 28% of them were guilty. The rest were victims of a . . . hysteria . . . persecution . . . something. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/63 "2011-06-10T05:50:14Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’ve heard that- over centuries- something like 100 million pagans were murdered. The whole culture was destroyed. It isn’t that I am or want to be a pagan, but dayum that’s a lot of killings. Theodosius only lived to 48, and was emperor for 15 years, so I’d say it’s a stretch to hold him personally responsible for things that happened “over centuries”. He’s responsible for the choices he made and the things he did, either good or bad, but the fact that Charlemagne forcibly converted the Saxons or the Spanish conquistadors wiped out the Aztec civilization can’t be placed on his head. > [@](#): > > Theodosius was the last emperor of the whole empire. It was always falling apart during/after him. Part of the reason I think is the autocrat turning the civilization against itself. No matter who wins, Rome loses. And it did! It was falling apart before him too, though. He was the last single emperor of the whole empire because he reunified it after it had been divided in three. The empire had been falling apart since the Crisis of the Third Century (if you’re familiar with that), and the best that the emperors could do was to try to patch it back together and hold on to as much as they can. e didn’t turn the civilization against itself. It had already turned against itself. The Crisis of the Third Century was a 50 year civil war, followed, after 12 years of relative stability by Diocletian, by a 19 year civil war as his tetrarchy concept collapsed and his successors fought to see who would succeed him. Then, after 14 years of stability under Constantine, guess what happens? That’s right. His three sons then start a civil war over the throne and divide the empire up. That sparks war on and off for 21 years, until Julian ascends to the throne. Julian is emperor for an unhappy two years, when he’s killed either by a disgruntled Christian or an enemy soldier, then after 8 months of rule by Jovian, Valentian takes the throne and brings peace. But, of course, he gives half the empire to his brother, and the empire is divided again, and then again by Valentian’s sons, which then brings us to Theodosius, which is where we started. Meanwhile, while all this is going on, you’ve got barbarians crossing the frontier, you’ve got civil unrest, you’ve got friction between Christians and pagans, you’ve got rebellion, and you’ve got famine. This was all the situation when Theodosius became emperor. It’s not the result of it. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/64 "2011-06-10T06:43:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many centuries? [The whole population of the Roman Empire never got above 100 million, probably much less.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#Demography) But they didn’t limit religious killing to the borders of the Empire, nor the duration of the Empire. Anyway, I’m not stuck on the 100 million figure. It is just a figure I heard in casual conversation, arrived at by a kind of class-action mathematics. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Theodosius only lived to 48, and was emperor for 15 years, so I’d say it’s a stretch to hold him personally responsible for things that happened “over centuries”. Except for the Roman Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/65 "2011-06-10T06:52:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Meanwhile, while all this is going on, you’ve got barbarians crossing the frontier, you’ve got civil unrest, you’ve got friction between Christians and pagans, you’ve got rebellion, and you’ve got famine. This was all the situation when Theodosius became emperor. It’s not the result of it. Julian did a fine job securing Gaul as Caesar in the west. If other emperors had been so practical and less focused on executing heretics things might have gone more smoothly. Yes of course, there are centuries of context preceding Theodosius and he faced a difficult challenge. There may have been no way for him to know the right moves to make, as if a fate or doom were in effect. In the end he couldn’t claim ‘veni vidi vici’ as a motto. Quite the opposite- a huge chunk of the project completely fell apart shortly after his time at the wheel. In the context of the OP, I’d say America is quite different by comparison. Let’s check back every 50 years or so 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/66 "2011-06-10T13:28:52Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Julian did a fine job securing Gaul as Caesar in the west. If other emperors had been so practical and less focused on executing heretics things might have gone more smoothly. Things might have gone more smoothly if Julian had focused on ruling his own troubled empire instead marching off to conquer Parthia/Persia/Iran. Julian should have known, from the experiences of Crassus, Antony et al.: That **never** works. Alexander just got lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/67 "2011-06-10T14:11:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Alexander just got lucky. Hmmyes, but strong determination, ruthlessness and bold tactics (aka “sheer boneheaded stupidity”) also helped. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/68 "2011-06-10T14:42:31Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Paganism was gone in all of Europe by 1400 after the crusades against Prussia by the Teutonic Knights. And the main goals of these crusades was to convert not to genocide. These numbers are as laughable as the “25 million witches killed” number trotted out by anti-Catholic fanatics (ironically including both rabid ideological atheists and Jack Chick) And what’s more, the “witches” were usually tried in secular courts rather than church courts. Any “witch” with any sense would try to get his case turned over to the church. The jails were much cleaner, the food was much better, the threat of torture was remote, they were much more likely to be acquitted, and anyone who confessed to witchcraft and repented was usually pardoned. From ["Witches and the Inquisition"](http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/burning_times_inquisition_witches.htm)at [CatholicBridge.com](http://CatholicBridge.com): > [@](#): > > When the Church was at the height of its power (11th-14th centuries) very few witches died. Persecutions did not reach epidemic levels until after the Reformation, when the Catholic Church had lost its position as Europe’s indisputable moral authority. Moreover most of the killing was done by secular courts. Church courts tried many witches but they usually imposed non-lethal penalties. A witch might be excommunicated, given penance, or imprisoned, but she was rarely killed. The Inquisition almost invariably pardoned any witch who confessed and repented. > > … in York, England, as described by Keith Thomas (Religion and the Decline of Magic). At the height of the Great Hunt (1567-1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight “compurgators”, people who were willing to swear that he wasn’t a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment. > > … Ironically, the worst courts were local courts. …“Community-based” courts were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing 90% of all accused witches… national courts tended to have professional, trained staff – men who were less likely to discard important legal safeguards in their haste to see “justice” done. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/69 "2011-06-10T17:04:15Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Except for the Roman Catholic Church. Theodosius is not responsible for every single thing the Catholic Church did throughout its history. > [@](#): > > Julian did a fine job securing Gaul as Caesar in the west. If other emperors had been so practical and less focused on executing heretics things might have gone more smoothly. Yes of course, there are centuries of context preceding Theodosius and he faced a difficult challenge. There may have been no way for him to know the right moves to make, as if a fate or doom were in effect. In the end he couldn’t claim ‘veni vidi vici’ as a motto. Quite the opposite- a huge chunk of the project completely fell apart shortly after his time at the wheel. Julian did do a good job as Caesar in the West, but the fact that we even can talk about Julian’s accomplishments as Caesar in the West is a sign of the weakness of the Empire. Most of what he did in Gaul was war against the Alamanni, who had destroyed Colonia Aggripina and were besieging Augustudunum. He spent most of his time in the west fighting the Alamanni and the Franks, and correcting maladministration that was already there. Then, one of his legions mutinied, declared him emperor and started him on his conflict with Constantius. Julian did well in Gaul, and he did decently as Emperor, even though he, like Theodosius, got himself involved in the whole “pagans vs Christians” thing. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/70 "2011-06-10T17:48:52Z")
The American empire will fall just like Rome, perhaps in 5-10 years. The most tragic thing is that this time, there will be no people from the North to pick up the baton. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/71 "2011-06-10T18:28:42Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The American empire will fall just like Rome, perhaps in 5-10 years. The most tragic thing is that this time, there will be no people from the North to pick up the baton. You mean Canadians? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/72 "2011-06-10T19:03:39Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The American empire will fall just like Rome, perhaps in 5-10 years. You expect local army commanders to trash the country as they use the troops under their command to attempt to seize dictatorial power? That seems highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/73 "2011-06-10T19:23:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What I really want to see is “Real American Gladiators.” Essentially UFC or MMA, but with edged weapons added. I did actually once manage to interest a major network (which I am not allowed to name for reasons I am not allowed to discuss) in the idea, but uncharacteristically vigorous (even **loud,** I daresay, in the literal sense) protests from the legal department caused the project to get the thumbs down, as it were, despite **amazingly** positive response from the test audience. I would LOVE to hear the whole story there. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/74 "2011-06-10T19:24:24Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The American empire will fall just like Rome, perhaps in 5-10 years. The most tragic thing is that this time, there will be no people from the North to pick up the baton. Hmmm, I think not. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/75 "2011-06-10T19:25:02Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You expect local army commanders to trash the country as they use the troops under their command to attempt to seize dictatorial power? > > That seems highly unlikely. I don’t know. But I do believe in what Donald Trump is saying: “We are so politically correct that this country is falling apart.” 1:18 in this clip: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIDqxbDGlpw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIDqxbDGlpw) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/76 "2011-06-10T19:37:36Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > I don’t know. But I do believe in what Donald Trump is saying Well, there’s your OTHER problem… ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/77 "2011-06-10T21:07:23Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Hmmm, I think not. Look at how quickly the Soviet Union fell apart. If you’d told me in 1985 that the Soviet Union would be gone in ten years, I’d have laughed at you. Most other people would have, too. Certainly no one has a detailed knowledge of the future, but we can take a look at trends and get a general feel for what’s going on. Suppose you knew someone who was morbidly obese, lived on a diet of junk food, drank heavily, smoked like a chimney, never got any exercise, and hung out in seedy bars in a bad part of town. You have good reason to expect that something bad’s going to happen to him sooner or later. Maybe he’ll have a heart attack or a stroke, maybe he’ll get shot in a robbery, whatever. You don’t know exactly what it might be, but the signs aren’t good, and if you sell him insurance you’d better charge him some whopping premiums. Of course, maybe he’ll get lucky. Maybe he’ll beat the odds. It seems to me that this is something like America’s present position. We’ve lost control of our borders, our economy has been horrendously mismanaged by both the private and public sectors, there’s a political logjam in Washington like nobody’s seen since 1860, and we’ve got who knows how many military commitments all around the world, any one of which could blow up in our faces. It ain’t looking good. Maybe we’ll beat the odds, but that’s not how I’d place my bets. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/78 "2011-06-10T22:12:22Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > But I do believe in what Donald Trump is saying: “We are so politically correct that this country is falling apart.” Do you believe that “political correctness” caused the collapse of the Roman Empire? ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/79 "2011-06-10T22:24:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Do you believe that “political correctness” caused the collapse of the Roman Empire? Of course I do! Multiculturalism (political correctness) was exactly the reason why the Roman Empire collapsed. They invited too many Barbarians to live on the Italian peninsula; it is as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/80 "2011-06-10T22:41:52Z")
The question is not whether we will suffer the fate of Rome, so much as whether we _deserve_ to. Some of us certainly do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=5)