# American Civilization=Roman Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726 "2011-06-08T12:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/101 "2011-06-12T12:38:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Ironically, the part which most closely resembled “political correctness”, namely, treating individual Germans as people and sometimes incorporating them into auxiliary units, had been successfully going on for hundreds of years by the time the Empire had declined. The idea of incorporating the Germans into the Roman Army was a giant mistake. Dual loyalty within an army is catastrophic and resulted in the betrayal carried out by Arminius at the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest. [Battle of the Teutoburg Forest - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest) After this event, the Roman Army never really recovered. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/102 "2011-06-12T13:05:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No. It will fall next Tuesday, OMG ! > > I thought multiculturalism (political correctness) had been invented in America in the 60s and forced upon Sweden ? Get your utter lack of facts straight. The idea of cultural Marxism, that is to deteriorate a society, was of course not known to the Romans. But it was known to the members of the Frankfurt School who had studied the implications of multiculturalism in ancient Rome. They knew they could not get the working class to lead a Marxist revolution, because it was becoming part of the middle class, the hated bourgeoisie. Instead they wanted a coalition of non-whites, students and feminist women to do it for them. They implemented the political correctness ideology that is now “making America fall apart”, as Donald Trump said. I don’t think it will be violent though, but I think that some states will soon break loose, just like Scotland will be independent too one day. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/103 "2011-06-12T14:34:31Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > After this event, the Roman Army never really recovered. Although it did manage to struggle on for another fourteen centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/104 "2011-06-12T14:40:08Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The idea of incorporating the Germans into the Roman Army was a giant mistake. Dual loyalty within an army is catastrophic and resulted in the betrayal carried out by Arminius at the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest. > [Battle of the Teutoburg Forest - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest) > After this event, the Roman Army never really recovered. I wish we could have such successful giant mistakes. The Roman state lasted for at least 400 years after this giant mistake. This didn’t even bring the expansion of Rome to a halt except in the local area. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/105 "2011-06-12T14:41:53Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > After this event, the Roman Army never really recovered. Utter nonsense. Teutoburger Wald was fought in 9 AD. The collapse of the Western Empire lay more than 350 years in the future. It’s true that Teutoburger Wald marked the end of Roman attempts to conquer Germany. But it’s not because the army had been irreparably damaged. They just decided it wasn’t worth the effort – the supply lines were too long, the country was too poor, and the Germans were too fractious. Instead the Empire turned its attention to Britain, which was invaded by Claudius about 30 years after the defeat at Teutoburger. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/106 "2011-06-12T19:52:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And you have your dates wrong. Theodosius was a fairly devout Christian from his youth, he (along with Gratian and Valentian) issued the Edict of Thessalonica mandating that the entire empire be Nicean Christian, in February of 380, was baptized in November of 380, actively moved against the Arians around the same time by exiling the Arian Patriarch of Constantinope and putting a Nicean in his place, banned sacrificing to pagan gods and taking auspices in the late 380s (Constantine had done the same thing), and really acted to stamp out paganism and destroy pagan temples from 389-395, when he died. It isn’t that the date is wrong but that I’m conflating baptism with conversion. And of course I have a more topical understanding of ancient Roman history. Still, this conversation is far more to point than anything Fox news presents. I even threw in a dig at conservatives, but 1. it was accurate and 2. my whole agenda here is not to promulgate a political perspective but to simply answer the question. Obviously the kinds of issues faced by America and Rome are almost not comparable, even if you go so far as to paint America as an ‘empire’. The president can be impeached if he goes nuts, and is in any case rotated out every 4 or 8 years in a rather stable system. As for Julian’s questionable performance, in part it is a glaring example of the trouble with an Imperial system. We have a guy in his late 20’s making decisions from an autocrat’s position. He had success fighting in Gaul, decided the only thing he liked more than war was philosophy, then probably made his decision to go to war based on his personal preferences. America has a CIC, sure, but still it isn’t so easy to set an agenda on one person’s whims. America could become a theocracy if there was enough political will for it, but the change would be a lot harder to make than an emperor issuing a decree. Heck, the lack of autocrats means our system is more likely to accomplish nothing at all than perform constant, sudden jerks in policy on the scale of, ‘Which religion must we adhere to or die in this generation?’ ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/107 "2011-06-12T21:06:53Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The idea of cultural Marxism, that is to deteriorate a society, was of course not known to the Romans. > [@RaleighRally](#): > > The idea of incorporating the Germans into the Roman Army was a giant mistake. Dual loyalty within an army is catastrophic and resulted in the betrayal carried out by Arminius at the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest. > [Battle of the Teutoburg Forest - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest) > After this event, the Roman Army never really recovered. Are you for real, dude? I’m starting to have some doubts with all those “pearls” you keep posting. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/108 "2011-06-13T19:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Things might have gone more smoothly if Julian had focused on ruling his own troubled empire instead marching off to conquer Parthia/Persia/Iran. Julian should have known, from the experiences of Crassus, Antony et al.: That never works. Alexander just got lucky. Just to set the record straight, there is a better answer to this too. The emperor Constantius was a bit of a paranoiac and had pretty much hoped to eliminate Julian from the beginning- Julian wasn’t supposed to survive his mission in Gaul in the first place, and it seems Constantius had different long-term plans for relations with the Germans besides driving them out and re-asserting control. After that, we may never be able to know for sure if Julian much wanted to become Augustus. Yes, his army mutineed and declared him Augustus, but it was at the point of a sword. Julian’s only real alternative to accepting that was death. The reason they mutineed was that Julian had promised them that they would not be asked to fight outside of Gaul- part of the reason he was so effective there. However, Persia under Sapor was invading Rome from the east, burning cities &etc, and Constantius demanded Julian send his troops to help with that fight. He obeyed, some were sent, but he also got crowned Augustus in the meantime. Constantius meant to treat Julian as another usurper and planned to invade Gaul and wipe him out, even though he bears most of the blame for Julian’s elevation. Julian fought back, becoming an actual usurper himself, but might have been more of an object of circumstance during this episode. Anyway, Julian’s self-defense/civil war didn’t have to go far because Constantius spontaneously died soon after it started, leaving Julian Augustus of the empire anyway. Maybe I mis-spoke when I said Julian was being impulsive in invading Persia. They had just invaded Rome in the previous years and sacked cities. The invasion was an extension of a policy that was already in place. Sapor was suing for peace, sure, but maybe it was a natural enough decision to strike back at them. Anyway, that said I am still getting schooled here :o Always appreciated, 'dope! ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/109 "2011-06-13T20:32:54Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Are you for real, dude? I’m starting to have some doubts with all those “pearls” you keep posting. The first quote was in response to a person who seemed stupid and I tried to level with him. The second quotation I maintain, because the Roman army never regained the same strength again. The conquering of two thirds of Britain **before** the Anglo-Saxon migration was hardly a feat. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/110 "2011-06-14T01:21:40Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The first quote was in response to a person who seemed stupid and I tried to level with him. The second quotation I maintain, because the Roman army never regained the same strength again. The conquering of two thirds of Britain **before** the Anglo-Saxon migration was hardly a feat. Were you there? I wish I had gotten in earlier on the discussion of Julian. My interpretation is a lot more charitable than **Captain Amazing’s** , to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/111 "2011-06-14T01:29:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Nonsense. America is not retreating from anywhere […] and unlike Rome it has the good will of half the world and the grudging tolerance of the rest. You might want to check your maths. That would seem to indicate that everyone either likes or tolerates (the collective) you. But… if it is correct, then perhaps you’d like to come and pick up the armies you’ve inadvertently left at your friend’s house. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/112 "2011-06-14T01:34:08Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > You might want to check your maths. That would seem to indicate that everyone either likes or tolerates (the collective) you. But… if it is correct, then perhaps you’d like to come and pick up the armies you’ve inadvertently left at your friend’s house. 🙂 😕 :o You mean they’re still . . . I know we never said anything, but after all this time, we were kinda hoping, ya know . . . You could always tell the kids they went to a farm upstate or something . . . ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/113 "2011-06-14T01:51:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > All Theodosius did was make paganism illegal and extend religious conformity to non-Christians in the empire; a big thing, to be sure, but not “establishing the Catholic Church”. Oh, is that ‘all’? From The Decline etc, pg 522: > [@](#): > > The ruin of Paganism in the age of Theodosius is perhaps the only example of the total extirpation of any ancient and popular superstition; and may therefore deserve to be considered as a singular event in the history of the human mind. The Christians, more especially the clergy, had impatiently supported the prudent delays of Constantine and the equal toleration of the elder Valentinian; nor could they deem their conquest perfect or secure as long as their adversaries were permitted to exist. The influence which Ambrose [bishop of Milan] and his brethren had acquired over the youth of Gratian and the piety of Theodosius was employed to infuse the maxims of persecution into the breasts of their Imperial proselytes. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/114 "2011-06-14T02:04:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Oh, is that ‘all’? > > From The Decline etc, pg 522: Gibbon’s is one interpretation, and it is by no means the accepted one. You are better off with AHM Jones. From p.169 of the first volume of The Later Roman Empire: > [@](#): > > It was, however, Theodosius who won the day, and the ban on pagan cult was never lifted after 391. Paganism was not killed by the blow. The law was not very efficiently enforced – there were too many pagans or sympathizers of pagans in high places for that – and the cult continued overtly in several places for generations, and secretly for some centuries. There was moreover as yet no ban on pagan beliefs, and no penalties or disabilities attached to open profession of them. Overt pagans could still gain high preferment in the state service, and many long continued to do so. Nor did the pagans utterly lose heart. Read Gibbon if you care about historiography or about the history of ideas. But for Roman history? Less enthusiastically. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/115 "2011-06-14T02:11:28Z")
It might be worth adding to the above that AHM Jones does not particularly like Theodosius, so it is certainly not the case that Jones is just making excuses for him. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/116 "2011-06-14T02:20:05Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Gibbon’s is one interpretation, and it is by no means the accepted one. You are better off with AHM Jones. From p.169 of the first volume of The Later Roman Empire: I’m not familiar with AHM Jones, but okay… > [@](#): > > It was, however, Theodosius who won the day, and the ban on pagan cult was never lifted after 391. Wait a minute. How is that ‘winning the day’? He succeeded in banning a religion, with capital punishment (under torture!) as the punishment for disobedience. Is Gibbon so unacceptable then? Why would I be better off with AHM Jones? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/117 "2011-06-14T02:27:47Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Were you there? > > I wish I had gotten in earlier on the discussion of Julian. My interpretation is a lot more charitable than **Captain Amazing’s** , to say the least. Yeah, I’m not really that big a fan of Julian. I’m not really any great lover of Theodosius either, honestly. The man was impulsive, he was brutal, and his Visigoth policy, even though it temporarily stabilized the empire, contributed a lot to its decline. But, I also don’t think that the man was some sort of singular villain, or even that the suppression of paganism and Christianization of the empire was itself a particularly destructive thing. Regarding Gibbon, I like the Decline and Fall a lot. It’s a great book, probably the first modern history in English, and it’s a fun read. But Gibbon had his biases. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/118 "2011-06-14T02:29:55Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’m not familiar with AHM Jones, but okay… And [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold\_Hugh\_Martin\_Jones](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Hugh_Martin_Jones) you are. > [@](#): > > Wait a minute. How is that ‘winning the day’? He succeeded in banning a religion, with capital punishment (under torture!) as the punishment for disobedience. > > Is Gibbon so unacceptable then? Why would I be better off with AHM Jones? In this context, Theodosius “winning the day” refers to his war with Arbogast and Flavian. Theodosius defeated them, obviously. The pagans themselves had lost, a long time before that. The nominal penalty for a huge number of offenses under Roman law was torture and capital punishment. These sentences were _frequently_ commuted. I don’t recall offhand some examples of prosecutions under the Theodosian decree, but that’s easy enough to look up. Gibbon is good for a bunch of things, but his interpretation of the Late Empire is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/119 "2011-06-14T02:38:21Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Wait a minute. How is that ‘winning the day’? He succeeded in banning a religion, with capital punishment (under torture!) as the punishment for disobedience. **Maeglin** didn’t include the paragraph before that. Jones is talking about Theodosius’s war with Eugenius: > [@](#): > > By the same time the second law was issued, Theodosius was no longer in control of the West. Here Eugenius, whose Christianity seems to have been somewhat superficial, made some halfhearted attempts to win the the support of the pagans without alienating the church. Petitioned by the Senate, he first refused and then consented to restore the altar of Victory. He would not go so far as to return their endowments of the Vestals and the priestly colleges, but he granted them to prominent pagan senators-who could put them to their proper use. His principal supporters, though, the _magister militum_, Arbogast, and his praetorian prefect, Nicomachus Flavianus were both overt and zealous pagans, and the later ostentatiously revived the pagan cults of Rome. Three contemporary poems testify to the alarm which Christians felt at these hints that Eugenius might prove a new Julian, and Paulinus reports that Arbogast and Flavianus swore that on their victorious return from the war with Theodosius, they would stable their horses in the churches and conscript the clergy into the army. > > It was, however, Theodosius who won the day. . . ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/120 "2011-06-14T02:41:06Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > I can’t decide which Roman leader Obama is most similar to. This is a question that I (and even my favoritest Roman History/Latin professor) wrangled with back when you people had your election. I decided on Tiberius Gracchus, given his background from the oppressed (I.e., black/plebeian) class, and his populist/socialist leanings. At least in comparison to the GOP. Tea Partiers would have you believe that Obama is most like Philip the Arab. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=7)