# American Civilization=Roman Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726 "2011-06-08T12:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/121 "2011-06-14T02:45:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yeah, I’m not really that big a fan of Julian. I’m a huge fan of Ammianus, so he has certainly rubbed off on me. I’ve also spent some time translating a few of Julian’s works. They are definitely offbeat and certainly Late Antique, but are more than pseudo-intellectual. > [@](#): > > I’m not really any great lover of Theodosius either, honestly. The man was impulsive, he was brutal, and his Visigoth policy, even though it temporarily stabilized the empire, contributed a lot to its decline. But, I also don’t think that the man was some sort of singular villain, or even that the suppression of paganism and Christianization of the empire was itself a particularly destructive thing. I don’t love Theodosius, either. He just looms very large because we happen to have some good sources for the end of the 4th century, and their authors either love him or loathe him. > [@](#): > > Regarding Gibbon, I like the Decline and Fall a lot. It’s a great book, probably the first modern history in English, and it’s a fun read. But Gibbon had his biases. Gibbon is definitely a fun read. He is a marvelous stylist and his wit is incisive. The problem with using Gibbon for Roman history is that we simply know so much more now than he did. He had no archaeology, no prosopography, no documentary sources, and largely terrible manuscripts for the historiographical sources he did use. Decline is an amazing achievement given how little real material was available when he wrote it. What he knew he knew well, but his interpretations are not so reliable anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/122 "2011-06-14T04:07:05Z")
If I am ever elected POTUS, I pledge to model my administration on the reigns of Caligula, Nero and Elagabalus – allowing, of course, for the great advancements of civilization, then to now, in the development of psychoactive substances. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/123 "2011-06-14T13:04:01Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > In this context, Theodosius “winning the day” refers to his war with Arbogast and Flavian. Theodosius defeated them, obviously. The pagans themselves had lost, a long time before that. Why would you say that the pagans had already lost? I view this war and the final battle (was it the Frigidus?) as one example of a truly decisive battle. If Arbogast had won, things would have been very, very different. This is the war in which one religion established itself as the only legal religion and all other religions as illegal, ‘pagans’ not being just one religion. But what I hate Theodosius even more for is that, in his religious fervor he actually _relied_ on God to defeat the Goths. To the extent of keeping the army inside its barracks while he lay prostrate before the altar, praying for God to intervene. As direct consequence Italy was devestated and Rome sacked(!!!). While indeed no one is an actual hollywood style villain, I do hold Theodosius responsible (to a large extent) for the demise of the western half of the empire. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/124 "2011-06-14T13:48:51Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But what I hate Theodosius even more for is that, in his religious fervor he actually _relied_ on God to defeat the Goths. To the extent of keeping the army inside its barracks while he lay prostrate before the altar, praying for God to intervene. > As direct consequence Italy was devestated and Rome sacked(!!!). What? That didn’t happen. First of all, the Visigoths didn’t sack Rome until 410, and Rome wasn’t sacked in the Gothic War, and most of the war didn’t take place in Italy, it took place in Illyria. But, I’m not familiar with Theodosius relying on God to defeat the Goths. As far as I know, what happened was, after Valens was killed at Adrianople, Gratian put Theodosius in charge of the Eastern army. Theodosius then ran around for a while unsuccessfully trying to raise troops, after the number of recruitable men had taken a nosedive after the defeat at Adrianople. So, Theodosius recruited a lot of foederati troops, who he didn’t trust, who he then shipped down to Egypt to replace the garrison troops he pulled from there. He then got in a bunch of battles with the Goths, suffering some early defeats, in large part due to the foederati troops defecting, but then he and Gratian were able to push the Goths into Thrace, where he signed a treaty with them, letting them settle in Thrace. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/125 "2011-06-14T13:56:58Z")
As Gibbon puts it: > [@](#): > > But the effects which were produced by the battle of Hadrianople on the minds of the Barbarians and of the Romans, extended the victory of the former, and the defeat of the latter, far beyond the limits of a single day. A Gothic chief was heard to declare, with insolent moderation, that, for his own part, he was fatigued with slaughter: but that he was astonished how a people, who fled before him like a flock of sheep, could still presume to dispute the possession of their treasures and provinces. The same terrors which the name of the Huns had spread among the Gothic tribes, were inspired, by the formidable name of the Goths, among the subjects and soldiers of the Roman empire. If Theodosius, hastily collecting his scattered forces, had led them into the field to encounter a victorious enemy, his army would have been vanquished by their own fears; and his rashness could not have been excused by the chance of success. But the great Theodosius, an epithet which he honorably deserved on this momentous occasion, conducted himself as the firm and faithful guardian of the republic. He fixed his head-quarters at Thessalonica, the capital of the Macedonian diocese; from whence he could watch the irregular motions of the Barbarians, and direct the operations of his lieutenants, from the gates of Constantinople to the shores of the Hadriatic. The fortifications and garrisons of the cities were strengthened; and the troops, among whom a sense of order and discipline was revived, were insensibly emboldened by the confidence of their own safety. From these secure stations, they were encouraged to make frequent sallies on the Barbarians, who infested the adjacent country; and, as they were seldom allowed to engage, without some decisive superiority, either of ground or of numbers, their enterprises were, for the most part, successful; and they were soon convinced, by their own experience, of the possibility of vanquishing their invincible enemies. The detachments of these separate garrisons were generally united into small armies; the same cautious measures were pursued, according to an extensive and well-concerted plan of operations; the events of each day added strength and spirit to the Roman arms; and the artful diligence of the emperor, who circulated the most favorable reports of the success of the war, contributed to subdue the pride of the Barbarians, and to animate the hopes and courage of his subjects. If, instead of this faint and imperfect outline, we could accurately represent the counsels and actions of Theodosius, in four successive campaigns, there is reason to believe, that his consummate skill would deserve the applause of every military reader. The republic had formerly been saved by the delays of Fabius; and, while the splendid trophies of Scipio, in the field of Zama, attract the eyes of posterity, the camps and marches of the dictator among the hills of the Campania, may claim a juster proportion of the solid and independent fame, which the general is not compelled to share, either with fortune or with his troops. Such was likewise the merit of Theodosius; and the infirmities of his body, which most unseasonably languished under a long and dangerous disease, could not oppress the vigor of his mind, or divert his attention from the public service. IE, morale had been ruined after the defeat at Adrianople, so, instead of directly fighting the Goths, Theodosius planned a war of attrition, arranging for his troops to ambush and skirmish with them so as to win small battles and increase his troops’ morale, and kept on doing it until the Goths fell out among themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/126 "2011-06-14T14:25:10Z")
Sorry, I seem to be (very) confused… Shouldn’t post while at work [noted to self] ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/127 "2011-06-14T14:41:42Z")
The rulers of the late Roman Empire were not stupid. They knew that trying to defend far-flung provinces was impossible. But why did they abandon Brittania? The island was easily defensible, and it had a thoroughly romanized population. It should have been easy work to fend off the saxons, Picts, etc. My real question: at its peak, the Imperial Army was a well trained, well equipped fighting force. It posessed weapons that made it a formidable army. Did the army fall apartr because Rome no longer had the industrial capacity to equip large armies? Or was it mainly because it attempted to integrate too many disparate peoples into the army? Looking at the imperial soldiers of the 2nd century, versus the 4th, one notices the sloppy appearence of the soldiers of the 4th century-less armor was worn, and the helmets look second-rate. I suspect that the absence of bonuses (from conquests) made a military career less attarctive to young men, and so the armies of the 4th century had to make do with inferior and less-motivated recruits. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/128 "2011-06-14T14:47:54Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Why would you say that the pagans had already lost? You don’t have to take my word for it. Alan Cameron has a recent [book](http://www.amazon.com/Last-Pagans-Rome-Alan-Cameron/dp/019974727X) on the subject. Read the preview [here](http://books.google.com/books?id=NHgvpINWV_QC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false). Interestingly, he opens the introduction with the same Gibbon quote that **T2BC** deploys above. On page 4: > [@](#): > > The idea that the aristocracy of Rome spearheaded a “pagan revival” at the end of the fourth century, culminating in a “last pagan stand” defeated at the battle of the river Frigidus, dies hard. > [@](#): > > I view this war and the final battle (was it the Frigidus?) as one example of a truly decisive battle. If Arbogast had won, things would have been very, very different. This is more or less the view of Bloch and Alfoeldi. It’s undergone substantial revision at least since Peter Brown in the 70s. We know a lot more now about religious and spiritual life in the 4th century, and it has substantially changed interpretations about the survival and vigor of late imperial paganism. > [@](#): > > While indeed no one is an actual hollywood style villain, I do hold Theodosius responsible (to a large extent) for the demise of the western half of the empire. This is very offbeat. If you are going to blame any individual for the fall of the West, I think that’s got to be Aetius for losing Carthage in 439. Chris Wickham argues pretty convincingly that this was the tax spine and chief food source of Rome. The west was holding on reasonably well despite the sack until Carthage fell. Then, deprived of food and revenue, it was all over. If Aetius had moved his ass and dealt with Gaiseric properly, things indeed might have gone quite differently. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/129 "2011-06-15T03:29:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If I am ever elected POTUS, I pledge to model my administration on the reigns of Caligula, Nero and Elagabalus… Caligula? :eek: Nero? :eek: and… Elagabalus… who? \ :eek: I’m not sure that’s a completely great plan **BrainGlutton** : Caligula: “In early 41, Caligula was assassinated as the result of a conspiracy involving officers of the Praetorian Guard…” Nero: “Facing assassination, he committed suicide on 9 June 68 AD…” Elagabalus: “Elagabalus, only 18 years old, was assassinated… in a plot formed by his grandmother… and disgruntled members of the Praetorian Guard”. His own grandmother, **BrainGlutton** … his own granny! This plan doesn’t sound like a career with retirement benefits… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/130 "2011-06-15T04:13:10Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This is very offbeat. If you are going to blame any individual for the fall of the West, I think that’s got to be Aetius for losing Carthage in 439. Chris Wickham argues pretty convincingly that this was the tax spine and chief food source of Rome. The west was holding on reasonably well despite the sack until Carthage fell. Then, deprived of food and revenue, it was all over. If Aetius had moved his ass and dealt with Gaiseric properly, things indeed might have gone quite differently. Yup. One reason the [Battle of Cape Bon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Bon_(468)#Disastrous_expedition_against_the_Vandals) has sometimes been held up as the final death knell of the WRE. Had it suceeded Anthemius may have had the resources to stabilize his rule. Then again it may have been too late. But as final blow-outs go, it was a big one. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/131 "2011-06-15T18:02:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If I am ever elected POTUS, I pledge to model my administration on the reigns of Caligula, Nero and Elagabalus – allowing, of course, for the great advancements of civilization, then to now, in the development of psychoactive substances. 🙂 Not certain Elagabalus should be put in the same category as Nero or Caligula. That said, if you do plan on modeling yourself after him, you know what to do with your balls, dont you? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/132 "2011-06-15T18:43:14Z")
Well, at least we will no longer wonder if what happens when business interests visit the White House is strictly metaphorical 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/133 "2011-06-15T19:33:53Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Caligula? :eek: Nero? :eek: and… Elagabalus… who? \ :eek: > > I’m not sure that’s a completely great plan **BrainGlutton** : > > Caligula: “In early 41, Caligula was assassinated as the result of a conspiracy involving officers of the Praetorian Guard…” > > Nero: “Facing assassination, he committed suicide on 9 June 68 AD…” > > Elagabalus: “Elagabalus, only 18 years old, was assassinated… in a plot formed by his grandmother… and disgruntled members of the Praetorian Guard”. > > His own grandmother, **BrainGlutton** … his own granny! This plan doesn’t sound like a career with retirement benefits… 😛 Hey, man, my candle burns at both ends, etc. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/134 "2011-06-15T19:35:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Not certain Elagabalus should be put in the same category as Nero or Caligula. That said, if you do plan on modeling yourself after him, you know what to do with your balls, dont you? Same category of extravagance, same category of decadence. Different category of crazy. Maybe I’ll try El’s way if I last long enough in office to get bored . . . ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/135 "2011-06-15T21:14:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hey, man, my candle burns at both ends, etc. 😃 Both ends, the middle and flambéd like a crème brûlée… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726/136 "2011-06-16T18:58:29Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Sorry, I seem to be (very) confused… > Shouldn’t post while at work [noted to self] You might be thinking about Theodosius’s son, the Emperor Honorius, who was a big fan of cockfighting. The story goes that after the Visigoths sacked Rome in 410, Honorius was told that Rome had been destroyed, and went into a panic, only calming down when he learned that the messenger was referring to the city, and not to his prize rooster, who was also named Roma. Honorius also killed Stilichio, probably the only one who could have saved Rome, but that’s neither here nor there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civilization-roman-empire/584726.md?page=6)