# American Destupization 2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943 "2012-03-16T07:49:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/21 "2012-03-17T00:01:58Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > I see the loss of critical thinking as a major problem. People are quick to buy anything that fits their world view without fact checking. Cite? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/22 "2012-03-17T01:30:25Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > I see the loss of critical thinking as a major problem. _Loss?_ When was it ever in general possession? ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/23 "2012-03-17T02:10:57Z")
Regardless of how little there was in the past, it seems less common now. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/24 "2012-03-17T02:30:42Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Sticking to words I can spell and people should be able to understand, I think SD has been a failure. Ignorance has grown in its time. Facts and logic continue to lose importance. We guard the light We tend the flame We nourish hope We bide our time The day will come Or we could all get drunk and fuck, either way it’s all good ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/25 "2012-03-17T04:43:02Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Oh, I dunno. I’m not sure whether we’ve actually taught them anything as such, but perhaps the popularity of such TV shows as “The Big Bang Theory” indicates a growing appreciation for intellect. It seems to me that The “Geek = Cool” quotient of our society is rising. Naw, ‘geek’ is what that quirky hot girl next door thinks she is or the image Hipsters carefully cultivate through ironic kitsch, ‘dork’ is the descriptive term for a young aspiring scientist. Dork is not a selling point. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/26 "2012-03-17T20:14:40Z")
Frankly, I don’t think we need a big government effort toward destupization in the US. I mean, there are hardly even any stupas IN the US. Besides, I’d think it would run afoul of the 1st Amendment to start tearing down Buddhist prayer shrines. ---
**Author:** ![IceQube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@IceQube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IceQube)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/27 "2012-03-18T07:21:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I also think it should be pointed out - again - that ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing. I agree. I don’t think I’m stupid, but I definitely can’t point out Iraq on a map. But what separates me from someone who is stupid is that I can learn where Iraq is on a map, and that I can probably retain that fact for some time. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/28 "2012-03-18T14:23:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Frankly, I don’t think we need a big government effort toward destupization in the US. I mean, there are hardly even any stupas IN the US. Besides, I’d think it would run afoul of the 1st Amendment to start tearing down Buddhist prayer shrines. +1 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/29 "2012-03-18T15:28:04Z")
> [@IceQube](#): > > I agree. I don’t think I’m stupid, but I definitely can’t point out Iraq on a map. But what separates me from someone who is stupid is that I can learn where Iraq is on a map, and that I can probably retain that fact for some time. Any idiot can figure out how to find Iraq (or any country) on a map. What makes someone intelligent is being able to speak intelligently about that country and it’s context in the world. Really, what makes people think they are so “smart”? Do all of you work for NASA or something? Did you invent some sort of longer lasting lightbulb? Write a book on astrophysics? ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/30 "2012-03-18T18:14:35Z")
Cognitive ability and critical thinking partly define intelligence, also mental self discipline and the volition to direct the mind toward the desired results. Possibly I.Q. is a good indicator, and there is also brain research studies underway, but is there an absolute understanding of intelligence? I am always troubled by the self complacent, superior attitudes in some- about their educated intelligence, and worse their elitism and certainity that they are among the few, the proud, the intelligent. I remember a saying that “the more one knows, the more one is aware of how much there is still to know”. And why, after putting so much effort into my own education, does it seem to me, that many of my uneducated elders possess more practical intelligence then I could ever hope to have (In terms of common sense, good reasoning, decision making, and problem solving ability)? I often notice IMO, how much more" intelligent" my elders are, by comparison to some of my highly educated friends with advanced degrees. It must be a different kind of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/31 "2012-03-18T18:41:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really, what makes people think they are so “smart”? Do all of you work for NASA or something? Did you invent some sort of longer lasting lightbulb? Write a book on astrophysics? I have it on unquestionable authority that I am indeed special - my Mom told me so. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/32 "2012-03-19T03:56:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really, what makes people think they are so “smart”? Do all of you work for NASA or something? Did you invent some sort of longer lasting lightbulb? Write a book on astrophysics? I think much of it has to do with how much of what you ‘‘know’’ is true. What are your sources? How objective are they? Do they trace things back to scientific studies that have been written up and others have duplicated them? I think it is fairly easy to find a reliable map and learn where Iran is. Now, good sources about where their atomic program is going and if they get a bomb, will they use it for aggression? Those are much tougher to find reliable answers. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/33 "2012-03-19T09:59:11Z")
> [@florez](#): > > And why, after putting so much effort into my own education, does it seem to me, that many of my uneducated elders possess more practical intelligence then I could ever hope to have (In terms of common sense, good reasoning, decision making, and problem solving ability)? > I often notice IMO, how much more" intelligent" my elders are, by comparison to some of my highly educated friends with advanced degrees. It must be a different kind of intelligence. It kind of goes back to the old “book smarts” vs “street smarts” argument. “Intuition”, “rules of thumb”, “common sense” and “gut instinct” often works…until it doesn’t. Uneducated people can become very knowledgeable about a specific set of circumstances they are familiar with. OTOH, highly educated people may have a lot of theoretical knowledge that they don’t know how to apply in practice. It’s one thing to design a skyscraper on paper. It’s quite another to organize hundreds of men and machines to stack steel and concrete hundreds of feet in the air. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/34 "2012-03-20T02:54:05Z")
When I managed a factory, I listened very carefully to descriptions of what was happening out on the floor. The guys that spent 40 hours a week out there knew what was happening. Their understanding of it often lacked., ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/35 "2012-03-20T06:08:41Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > When I managed a factory, I listened very carefully to descriptions of what was happening out on the floor. The guys that spent 40 hours a week out there knew what was happening. Their understanding of it often lacked., Maybe the workers understood more than you gave them credit for, or more than they shared with you as management. Did they even like you, or did they think you looked down on them? Some companies provide liaisons to mediate between workers and management, and some supervisors have poor communication skills, and/or a lack of respect for their workers. Sometimes managers do not provide regular feedback to workers, or help them to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/36 "2012-03-20T13:03:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s one thing to design a skyscraper on paper. It’s quite another to organize hundreds of men and machines to stack steel and concrete hundreds of feet in the air. You are aware that some people do both, yes? ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/37 "2012-03-21T12:18:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really, what makes people think they are so “smart”? Do all of you work for NASA or something? Did you invent some sort of longer lasting lightbulb? Write a book on astrophysics? from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory\_superiority](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority) > [@](#): > > In a survey of faculty at the University of Nebraska, 68% rated themselves in the top 25% for teaching ability. > In a similar survey, 87% of MBA students at Stanford University rated their academic performance as above the median… > > …One of the first studies that found the effect of illusory superiority was carried out in 1976 by the College Board in the USA. A survey was attached to the SAT exams (taken by approximately one million students per year), asking the students to rate themselves relative to the median of the sample (rather than the average peer) on a number of vague positive characteristics. In ratings of leadership ability, 70% of the students put themselves above the median. In ability to get on well with others, 85% put themselves above the median, and 25% rated themselves in the top 1%… > > …Svenson (1981) surveyed 161 students in Sweden and the United States, asking them to compare their driving safety and skill to the other people in the experiment. For driving skill, 93% of the US sample and 69% of the Swedish sample put themselves in the top 50% (above the median). For safety, 88% of the US group and 77% of the Swedish sample put themselves in the top 50% Everything will be fine… We don’t need to worry about stupidity as long as 70% of us are smarter than the other 50% ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/38 "2012-03-21T12:43:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It kind of goes back to the old “book smarts” vs “street smarts” argument. “Intuition”, “rules of thumb”, “common sense” and “gut instinct” often works…until it doesn’t. Uneducated people can become very knowledgeable about a specific set of circumstances they are familiar with. > > OTOH, highly educated people may have a lot of theoretical knowledge that they don’t know how to apply in practice. True – and a lot of trouble, misunderstanding and animosity arises when those on one side become convinced of the superiority of their kind of “smarts”, or presume that someone from the other skillset being critical is somehow “looking down”. Maybe the person being critical is _ **not** _ “looking down” but from their POV something DOES look/sound (or even maybe actually IS) wrong. > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > You are aware that some people do both, yes? I don’t think he was claiming an exclusionary dichotomy, but just that they’re different skillsets and some people tend to gloss over it or presume superiority of one over the other. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/39 "2012-03-22T02:18:56Z")
Too many people put too much faith in their own limited experience. They know a Lab that is hyper, so all Labs are hyper. They know a Shepherd that is a fear biter, so Shepherds should be banned. They had a Chevy 20 years ago and the transmission went bad, so all Chevies are junk. They know a blond that is dumb… ---
**Author:** ![benbo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@benbo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benbo1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943/40 "2012-03-22T10:09:25Z")
the more I look around, the closer we’re getting to the society in ‘Idiocracy’. Everything, from conversations in public areas, to what tv shows are popular (and movies - notice how every new movie is either a remake, a tv show, fantasy about vampires, or cartoon?), to peoples’ general attitude how they behave in public. I ain’t no snob (if that’s a non-stupid term :rolleyes:) but even 20 years ago, topix of conversation were current world events (not, Snooki’s pregnant or the Situation is in rehab), physix & science issues, finance, literature, & life experiences. Now, goto a Starbux and you’ll see slackers on their Ipads, and overhear talking about the latest ‘American Idol’ voting controversy, which nail salon is the coolest, and why a latte is different than a mocha! I ain’t a genius, but I make an effort to interact with people about Bi/g Picture issues (especially on the SD boards). Is society in general really stupider? Have average SAT scores been in steady decline? If not, are the new members of adult society simply \*willfully \* ignorant? Not trying to sound mean or snobby, I just get tired of blank stares when I bring up an e.t.f. or the Bernoulli principle or George Orwell in conversation. Whither average i.q.? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-destupization-2012/615943.md?page=3)