# American dialect re. caught/ cot pronounciation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375 "2005-07-07T00:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/41 "2005-07-08T15:52:43Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Southerners pronounce the combo “aw”, and the combo “au”, as a diphthnong: **“aaaah” shading off to “wwwww”**. > > This sound is largely foreign to northeasterners, who pronounce a different sound that southerns do not hear or know: the pure “aw” NON-diphthong sound. (The only word I’ve heard Southerners speak that contains this sound in its pure form is “moment”, the first syllable thereof. More typically, it’s the vowel sound in “for” and “boy” but you have to remove the “r” and the “y” respectively to hear the pure vowel. Northeasterners pronounce this vowel-sound all by itself in words like “saw” and “lawyer” and “auto”, whereas we Southern-born folks would make diphthongs out of the vowels in those words). > > To a Southerner, “cot” is with the same vowel as the a in “father” or the o in “rock”. (All the same sound). “Caught” uses the diphthong, the “aw” sound as Southerners do it, k-aaa-aww-wwww-t. To further illustrate AHunter3’s point above, in case you’re still not quite clear on the Southern pronunciation of the word caught, pronounce it Cah’oot, but without aspirating the H. Used in a sentence: “Ah cah’oot that bah’ool en mah meeyut.” Hope this heyulps 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/42 "2005-07-08T17:07:46Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > To further illustrate AHunter3’s point above, in case you’re still not quite clear on the Southern pronunciation of the word caught, pronounce it Cah’oot, but without aspirating the H. > > Used in a sentence: “Ah cah’oot that bah’ool en mah meeyut.” > > Hope this heyulps 🙂 This is starting to sound like Appalachian dialect to me, which isn’t the same thing as Southern. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/43 "2005-07-08T17:13:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This is starting to sound like Appalachian dialect to me, which isn’t the same thing as Southern. Agreed, as a lifelong resident of Louisiana and Mississippi. There is no one Southern dialect, anyway. People from Georgia and Alabama can certainly sound funny in Louisiana (and no, very few people in La. speak with Cajun accents, either). Additionally, people in large Southern urban areas (Atlanta, New Orleans, Memphis, etc.) don’t sound much like folks in the not-too-far-away rural areas. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/44 "2005-07-09T20:50:25Z")
If you live in Idaho, then they probably do sound the same - you’re in a community that doesn’t make that distinction (I believe, at least, that Idahoans don’t.) They are quite different vowels in my dialect, however. It started on the West Coast and has moved rapidly eastward. > [@monstro](#): > > I was just having this conversation with someone. I cannot for the life of me pronounce “-ill” words so that they sound different from “-eel” or “-eal” words. “Meal” sounds like “mill”, “keel” sounds like “kill”, and “heel” sounds like “hill”. When others say it, I can hear the difference. But I cannot do it. > > I don’t know if it’s a southern thing or what. You’re black, correct? I’m a midwesterner and I associate this vowel merger with AAVE, but it may be something common to everyone in the South. I’m not certain if it’s southern or specifically black. > [@monstro](#): > > Yup. > > And I’m another person who doesn’t know the diff between “pin” and “pen”. Actually, I feel kinda stupid because I never knew they were different. They’re _not_ different, not in whatever dialect you speak, anyway. “Pin” and “pen” having the same vowel is one of the classic features of southern U.S. English. The British have even more vowels yet, but I can’t remember what they are. > [@robardin](#): > > That said, “caught” rhymes with “naught” (which rhymes with “ought”). Unless you rhyme that with “cot” too (which rhymes with “knot” and “hot”), which seems impossible… Uh, why would it be impossible? Some dialects of American English have one vowel fewer than others - “caught” and “cot” have exactly the same vowel sound. You can’t tell if someone’s talking about their friend “Dawn” or “Don”. There simply is not a phonetic difference there - they are the exact same vowel. Contrast with British English, which makes one more vowel distinction than even the most vowel-rich varieties of American English. As I said, it’s believed to have started on the west coast, but it’s common in various areas across North America nowadays. It’ll probably become the norm at some point. > [@1920s Style "Death Ray"](#): > > Observation: These threads are amusing because when someone says that they see no difference in pronounciation between Cot and Caught, you usually find that they also make no distinction between all of the other words that rhyme with those two. Posters then spend fruitless hours searching for some kind of example, any example, that will demonstrate the difference. Exactly. The point is that some dialects will have two vowels, while in other dialects, they’ve merged into a single one (the same happens in reverse; there’s “Canadian Raising”, which I think is common all over the U.S. by now, and gives “rider” and “writer” different vowels: /ai/ versus /Ui/.) This is a process that happens in every word, because it’s a change in the language’s phonetic system, not in the sound of individual words. > [@bordelond](#): > > Some speakers may pronounce a diphthong in “caught”. But I think you are picking up on the extra lip-rounding – it’s sounding like a tack-on “w” to you. The great majority of speakers who distinguish “cot”/“caught”, however, maintain about the same degree of lip-rounding throughout the production of the vowel inn “caught”. It’s not rounded even slightly for me - in English, /o/ and /u/ are rounded, whereas in “caught” my lips are not rounded at all. I’m terrible at describing vowel qualities, but it’s a matter of tongue position for me, not lip rounding. I speak something pretty close to textbook standard American English, too. I’ve certainly never seen that vowel described as “rounded” by linguists - perhaps you mean something different than the meaning of the term as used in phonetics. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/45 "2005-07-10T01:14:03Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > > [@bordelond](#): > > > > Some speakers may pronounce a diphthong in “caught”. But I think you are picking up on the extra lip-rounding – it’s sounding like a tack-on “w” to you. The great majority of speakers who distinguish “cot”/“caught”, however, maintain about the same degree of lip-rounding throughout the production of the vowel inn “caught”. > > It’s not rounded even slightly for me - in English, /o/ and /u/ are rounded, whereas in “caught” my lips are not rounded at all. I’m terrible at describing vowel qualities, but it’s a matter of tongue position for me, not lip rounding. I speak something pretty close to textbook standard American English, too. I’ve certainly never seen that vowel described as “rounded” by linguists - perhaps you mean something different than the meaning of the term as used in phonetics. No, the vowel I have in mind for my production of “caught” is [Cardinal Vowel VI](http://cspeech.ucd.ie/~fred/teaching/oldcourses/phonetics/sounds/open-o.au) (link opens a sound sample). [See here](http://cspeech.ucd.ie/~fred/teaching/oldcourses/phonetics/vowels1.html) for a definitive description of Cardinal VI as “rounded” (scroll about halfway down, and look on the far right of the page. Also see this link to clarify all refernces to Cardinal Vowels below). Now then – the degree of lip rounding for Cardinal VI is unquestionally far less that the degree of rounding for, say, American English /u/ (a vowel normally in advance of Cardinal VIII). Still, even a little bit of rounding and lip tension registers as “rounding” to phoneticians. All that doesn’t necessarily mean you yourself apply rounding to the vowel in “caught”. Your distinction between “cot” and “caught” might be something akin to the difference between Cardinal Vowels IV and V, both of which are unrounded. Or your distinction may be something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/46 "2005-07-10T01:47:25Z")
Georgian piping in to say that I pronounce “cot” and “caught” differently. Now, can somebody please explain how some people pronounce “wash” as “warsh”? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/47 "2005-07-10T04:47:20Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > No, the vowel I have in mind for my production of “caught” is [Cardinal Vowel VI](http://cspeech.ucd.ie/~fred/teaching/oldcourses/phonetics/sounds/open-o.au) (link opens a sound sample). [See here](http://cspeech.ucd.ie/~fred/teaching/oldcourses/phonetics/vowels1.html) for a definitive description of Cardinal VI as “rounded” (scroll about halfway down, and look on the far right of the page. Also see this link to clarify all refernces to Cardinal Vowels below). > > Now then – the degree of lip rounding for Cardinal VI is unquestionally far less that the degree of rounding for, say, American English /u/ (a vowel normally in advance of Cardinal VIII). Still, even a little bit of rounding and lip tension registers as “rounding” to phoneticians. > > All that doesn’t necessarily mean you yourself apply rounding to the vowel in “caught”. Your distinction between “cot” and “caught” might be something akin to the difference between Cardinal Vowels IV and V, both of which are unrounded. Or your distinction may be something else entirely. I’m not familiar with your terminology; I’m guessing it’s a different system than the one I’ve run into. I will agree that, in my vowel in “caught”, my lips are somewhat round, but it’s far, far less than they are in prononucing “coat” or “coot”. In the (rather limiting) binary sorta system used to describe sounds (can’t remember any names at the moment, as I’m under the influence of a couple glasses of Taylor 1992 Vintage Port), that vowel is definitely [-rounded], in comparison to /o/ and /u/ (and the vowels in the French “boef” and “tu”) which are [+rounded]. There is slight rounding, I guess, in “caught”, but not nearly as much as in the other vowels, and I’m not quite convinced that it’s not the shape the lips naturally assume. “Caught” is [+ATR], while “cot” might not be - but again, I’m bad at describing vowel qualities. ---
**Author:** ![Neptunian\_Slug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce7236/32.png) [@Neptunian\_Slug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neptunian_Slug)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/48 "2005-07-10T19:47:52Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Nice to know Clevelanders and Chicagoans speak the same language. > > But what I’ve been hearing lately, from local newspeople, is “steel, wheel, real” pronounced “still, will, rill,” e.g. the closing of a local “still mill.” I have no idea where that pronunciation came from. Perhaps Philly where they still love the NFC Champion Iggles. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/49 "2005-07-10T19:53:45Z")
> [@E-Diddy](#): > > Perhaps Philly where they still love the NFC Champion Iggles. They also love to shop for groceries at the Jine Iggle. ---
**Author:** ![Neptunian\_Slug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce7236/32.png) [@Neptunian\_Slug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neptunian_Slug)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/50 "2005-07-10T22:27:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > They also love to shop for groceries at the Jine Iggle. No that would be Steeler Fans. Iggles Fans shop at the Ac-a-me. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375/51 "2005-07-11T02:16:00Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Upstate NY. And it’s just the vowel sound that is the same; they don’t rhyme. However the “baw” in bought sounds the same as “for,” though there’s an extra “r” in “for” to moderate things. > > “Boat” sounds to me nothing like “for.” You actually say the letter “o” in “boat” and “cone,” but “for” has more of an “aw” (as in “awl”) sound. It’s interesting that Upstate New York is almost a microcosm of American dialects in and of itself. The Capital District is an interesting cross of Standard American and Northern/Western New England; the Southern Tier has some Pennsylvania overlays; Northern New York is a mix of New England, Standard American, a hint of a drawl, and an odd variation on Anglicized French on a few words. The Erie Frontier slants towards the Midwestern dialects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dialect-re-caught-cot-pronounciation/311375.md?page=2)