# American diplomatic ranks **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044 "2009-11-02T13:02:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/1 "2009-11-02T13:02:37Z")
Prompted by a business related meeting with an American diplomat (and being desirous of figuring out if the person is ranking or not as to figure out if this was a bullshit or an actionable conversation), is there any clear online guide to American diplomatic ranks. I have been to Wiki and I am still not clear as to the positioning of a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/2 "2009-11-02T14:06:33Z")
FWIW it goes: 1. Secretary 2. Deputy Secretary 3. Under Secretary 4. Assistant Secretary Looking around, it appears that Deputy Assistant Secretary is a high enough position for an individual to enter the Senior Executive Service pay scale of the US government, which means that they’re in the highest echelons of non-Presidentially appointed officials. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/3 "2009-11-02T14:21:42Z")
Sorry, I can’t find the reference online (have paper copy), but I suppose the easiest way to describe a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State is that they would be afforded roughly the same status as a three star general (if they are a Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State) or kind of like a 2-and-a-half star general (if they are a DASS). I’m not sure that was exactly what you’re looking for, but I think it may provide you a better sense of their importance without trying to explain the structure of the State Department. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/4 "2009-11-02T14:26:57Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > FWIW it goes: > > 1. Secretary > 2. Deputy Secretary > 3. Under Secretary > 4. Assistant Secretary > > Looking around, it appears that Deputy Assistant Secretary is a high enough position for an individual to enter the Senior Executive Service pay scale of the US government, which means that they’re in the highest echelons of non-Presidentially appointed officials. Thanks, I suppose then that they are at (5.) under Ass’t Sec? - and roughly how many people at these ranks. Sec of State = 1, Deputy I believe if understood the website =1 Under Sec. = 5+? Ass’t Sec is ?? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Sorry, I can’t find the reference online (have paper copy), but I suppose the easiest way to describe a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State is that they would be afforded roughly the same status as a three star general (if they are a Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State) or kind of like a 2-and-a-half star general (if they are a DASS). > > I’m not sure that was exactly what you’re looking for, but I think it may provide you a better sense of their importance without trying to explain the structure of the State Department. Ah yes, and thank you very much. But your first paragraph is a great deal of inside game and is not very clear to me (as I am not clear on the relative ranking of American generals either). I am not familiar with American bureaucracy so the inside game references are lost on me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/5 "2009-11-02T14:52:00Z")
I don’t recall the exact number of Assistant Secretaries, but it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20. I’ve never seen a count of Deputy Assistant Secretaries of State, but my WAG would be in the range of 45-60. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/6 "2009-11-02T15:20:23Z")
Here’s the State Department’s own summary of its major components: [We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/1718.htm) You can search by name here: [We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State](http://www.state.gov/misc/19232.htm) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/7 "2009-11-02T15:31:39Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Here’s the State Department’s own summary of its major components: [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/1718.htm](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/dos/1718.htm) > > You can search by name here: [http://www.state.gov/misc/19232.htm](http://www.state.gov/misc/19232.htm) Thanks but… well I already had that. For outsiders not versed in American bureaucracy it’s fundamentally unhelpful for getting a sensation of standing, etc. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t recall the exact number of Assistant Secretaries, but it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20. I’ve never seen a count of Deputy Assistant Secretaries of State, but my WAG would be in the range of 45-60. Ah, great, this puts it in context. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/8 "2009-11-03T15:33:31Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Thanks but… well I already had that. For outsiders not versed in American bureaucracy it’s fundamentally unhelpful for getting a sensation of standing, etc… You can search the name of the diplomat you met using the second link. Then you can see where he or she fits in. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/9 "2009-11-03T15:51:19Z")
The rank and file grades can be confusing, as well. Normal government jobs are known as GS jobs and become more important as the numbers get higher, i.e., GS-1 being the lowest and GS-15 being very senior. The Foreign Service, on the other hand, are FS jobs and get more senior as the numbers get smaller, i.e., FS-8 being very junior and an FS-1 being somewhat senior. To make it more confusing, once a person reaches FS-1, he is then elegible to “open his window” for selection to the Senior Foreign Service (or FE ranks). ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/10 "2009-11-03T15:51:29Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > and being desirous of figuring out if the person is ranking or not as to figure out if this was a bullshit or **an actionable conversation** What’s this all about? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/11 "2009-11-03T16:30:33Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > What’s this all about? Stuff. > [@Chefguy](#): > > The rank and file grades can be confusing, as well. Normal government jobs are known as GS jobs and become more important as the numbers get higher, i.e., GS-1 being the lowest and GS-15 being very senior. The Foreign Service, on the other hand, are FS jobs and get more senior as the numbers get smaller, i.e., FS-8 being very junior and an FS-1 being somewhat senior. To make it more confusing, once a person reaches FS-1, he is then elegible to “open his window” for selection to the Senior Foreign Service (or FE ranks). Thanks, perverse system, but I think I now understand the positioning of the person I was speaking with. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You can search the name of the diplomat you met using the second link. Then you can see where he or she fits in. Yes, I understood that. I _already_ had that information, what I did not understand was the structure of the American diplo service. It is hard to divine if one is not familiar with it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/12 "2009-11-03T16:35:00Z")
Did you, perchance, find his or her name on the State Department website? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-diplomatic-ranks/516044/13 "2009-11-04T23:04:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Did you, perchance, find his or her name on the State Department website? Find it, sure, it’s one of those names that’s all over the place. My question was not about confirming a position, but understanding the relative positioning.