# American Dopers, does it annoy you when people fly foreign flags? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608 "2011-07-19T18:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/61 "2011-07-19T22:56:21Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > We need a national anthem, something emotionally rousing - any ideas? Turns out [there is one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOj8Y9DZzIc). ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/62 "2011-07-19T23:01:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Turns out [there is one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOj8Y9DZzIc). I love the Internet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/63 "2011-07-19T23:27:58Z")
Nope, not in the least. > [@GusNSpot](#): > > If you are waving a flag while standing on or burning or otherwise disrespecting the US of A flag and are in the US of A you should be shot on the spot. > But then I would shoot traitors and be hard on illegal immigrants also but that is just me. > > If you have served your country and can prove it with a DD-214, then you can protest and do what you want, up to a point. ( I would draw the line shorter and more restrictive than a lot of other people. ) If not, you’re toast. > > Other wise, as long as it is not higher than the US of A flag while flown in the US of A or flown by itself in a non confrontational way, I have no problem with it. > > YMMV ( No, I don’t believe desecrating the US of A flag should be covered by free speech but that does not mean I will not abide by the laws of the land unless I can get away with it in these cases.) Wow…just…wow. Reading this makes me WANT to go out and burn a flag. You know what? Why not join me [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616982)? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/64 "2011-07-19T23:31:22Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I’m sure this will cause a shitstorm, but…I can say that in my experience, almost every single person I can recall who flew the Confederate flag earnestly and not as some ironic post-modern joke did so because that the person was a dyed-in-the-wool racist. I don’t wish to see a shitstorm, and I don’t think this is the thread to get into a debate about slavery, federalism and secession, and the War. But this has _not_ been my experience (nor the “ironic post-modern joke”–but such things often escape me). I’m sorry it’s been yours. Look, I’ve known people for whom–as best I could tell–it wasn’t really even a historical reference at all, but simply an identification with the South. Possibly a fondness for certain musical artists. Perhaps a very generalized sympathy for “rebels,” in the same sense that, say, a Gadsden flag could be for someone else. Other folks _do_ have history in mind, but still don’t see it as (necessarily) racist or pro-slavery. Now, you are free to think what you will of that position, but it is a fact that some people hold it. So imputing racist evil intent to _all_ such displays is IMO both unfair to those concerned and empowering to the genuine racists. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/65 "2011-07-19T23:34:47Z")
Are people offended at the stars and bars version of the confederate flag just as offended at What about his one [this one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/66 "2011-07-19T23:39:45Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Are people offended at the stars and bars version of the confederate flag just as offended at What about his one [this one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg) Nitpick. The one you just linked to **is the stars and bars**. The other one with the “X” is the Battle Flag or a derived flag. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/67 "2011-07-19T23:52:26Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t wish to see a shitstorm, and I don’t think this is the thread to get into a debate about slavery, federalism and secession, and the War. > > But this has _not_ been my experience (nor the “ironic post-modern joke”–but such things often escape me). I’m sorry it’s been yours. > > Look, I’ve known people for whom–as best I could tell–it wasn’t really even a historical reference at all, but simply an identification with the South. Possibly a fondness for certain musical artists. Perhaps a very generalized sympathy for “rebels,” in the same sense that, say, a Gadsden flag could be for someone else. > > Other folks _do_ have history in mind, but still don’t see it as (necessarily) racist or pro-slavery. Now, you are free to think what you will of that position, but it is a fact that some people hold it. So imputing racist evil intent to _all_ such displays is IMO both unfair to those concerned and empowering to the genuine racists. Given that I cannot recall meeting any person who flew the Confederate flag out of some attraction for music or rebels or whatnot who was not also a racist, I feel comfortable making a judgment about the kind of people who fly it. That’s my prejudice and one that I will maintain. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/68 "2011-07-20T00:06:05Z")
Nope, it doesn’t bother me. Considering the snide comments I’ve read about how they think Americans are being stupid for identifying as British, French, Italian or Irish etc since we’re not “really” [insert ethnicity], I don’t think that some people from overseas are aware of how conscious the average American is that - Native Americans aside - **all** of us have foreign ancestry. If you want to fly a flag in as a token symbol of connection to your ancestors from Europe, other parts of the Americas or wherever, it’s not usually a big deal (and as others have said, much less of a big deal is made of that than flying a confederate flag in the north.) ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/69 "2011-07-20T00:08:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes. If you fly the flag of a US enemy on US soil I think you must be some kind of moron. You might be one of several types of moron, or more than one, but clearly a moron. Is there some sort of comprehensive list of US enemies? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/70 "2011-07-20T00:13:50Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > War of 1812, yes I guess it was signed later, but Feb 18 is listed as at end date. I was being a bit facetious about this one, I don’t think anyone gets worked up about this one or even remembers it well, except for a few belligerent Canadians I’ve met or seen in the Internet. Just don’t tell them it was Britain that fought the war and Canada didn’t even exist. Canada definitely existed in 1814, it just wasn’t an independent country yet. But “Canadians” already existed as a national group. It’s true that the war of 1812 was fought by the British though. > [@elfkin477](#): > > Considering the snide comments I’ve read about how they think Americans are being stupid for identifying as British, French, Italian or Irish etc since we’re not “really” [insert ethnicity] It doesn’t make Americans stupid to identify as British, French, Italian or Irish, etc., but it’s true that they’re not really [insert ethnicity]. They’re Americans, actually white Americans, which is an entirely valid ethnicity. Or perhaps national group is more accurate. What tends to bother me is when these Americans act as if they share something of the _current_ existence of the nationalities they identify as, just by virtue of their ancestry. No, having Sicilian great-grandparents doesn’t mean you know anything about Italy in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/71 "2011-07-20T00:27:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Turns out [there is one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOj8Y9DZzIc). I prefer [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI) one. Note: NSFW ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/72 "2011-07-20T02:26:51Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Nitpick. The one you just linked to **is the stars and bars**. The other one with the “X” is the Battle Flag or a derived flag. Wow! I’ve heard that term a million times(grew up in Texas). I never would have known. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/73 "2011-07-20T03:34:38Z")
I don’t mind it a bit. I’m always kind of touched if I see someone flying the US flag with a foreign flag, because it makes me feel like they’re trying to send the message that despite affection for their ancestry or homeland, they still have allegiance to the US, but it doesn’t bother me if they don’t. I was surprised to see 3 homes in my neighborhood flying French flags on Bastille Day this year. That’s not something you see around here very much. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/74 "2011-07-20T03:36:30Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I figure people use their home flags to mark territory or remind their neighborhood they’re there, kind of like stamping “gay money” on dollar bills. What does stamping “gay money” on a dollar bill mean? 😕 And no, it doesn’t both me at all seeing foreign flags flown in the US. A more touchy question might be seeing those flags flown by immigrant communities in the US in support of homeland teams playing against US teams at international sporting events. I don’t think I’d care about that either, but that does tend to get people riled up. [QUOTE=Kolga] And again, the only time I ever hear anyone bitching about “those people are flying a flag other than the U.S. flag!” is when brown people from south of our border fly one. Irish flags? How charming - we all love the Irish! Greek flags? They make great food! French flags for Bastille Day! “Allons enfent de la patria…” Mexican flags? “Oh, look at those people not assimilating - why don’t they just go back to where they came from if they don’t like it here!” [/QUOTE] You’re really comparing reactions to French and Mexican immigration and think the difference is due to the latter being “brown people from south of our border”…? According to Table 2 [here](http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/publications/LPR10.shtm), in 2010 4,289 French people, 1,610 Irish, and a mere 966 Greeks obtained legal permanent residence status in the US. The number for Mexicans in the same period was 138,717. I’m pretty sure _that_ accounts for the main difference of reaction. For good or for ill, it’s easier to think how charming the Irish flag is when fewer Irish people entered last year than were in my high school, and when most of the people flying the flag have been here for multiple generations. When the Irish were coming in droves it was probably seen as a lot less charming. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/75 "2011-07-20T03:52:52Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > You’re really comparing reactions to French and Mexican immigration and think the difference is due to the latter being “brown people from south of our border”…? According to Table 2 [here](http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/publications/LPR10.shtm), in 2010 4,289 French people, 1,610 Irish, and a mere 966 Greeks obtained legal permanent residence status in the US. The number for Mexicans in the same period was 138,717. I’m pretty sure _that_ accounts for the main difference of reaction. For good or for ill, it’s easier to think how charming the Irish flag is when fewer Irish people entered last year than were in my high school, and when most of the people flying the flag have been here for multiple generations. When the Irish were coming in droves it was probably seen as a lot less charming. Obviously, large white immigrant movements (Irish, for example) happened a long time ago, and there is a belief that “white” immigrants (who were not considered white when they got here, but that is a hugely different issue) assimilated, whereas the current large brown immigrant movement from the south of our border are not assimilating at all, even though [assimilation rates](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_53.htm)aren’t that different for recent immigrants than for immigrants from a century ago. Flying the Irish flag during the heyday of Irish immigration might have created the same response as I’m seeing now, but the Irish weren’t seen as “WASP” in the same sense as the current citizens of America at that time, so I would argue that that particular reaction is STILL based on “those non-white people are flying their country’s flag! Why don’t they go back, then!” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/76 "2011-07-20T04:19:46Z")
I think you mean they weren’t seen as being WHITE. The Irish aren’t WASP, which stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Anglo-Saxon refers to English ancestry. And most Irish immigrants were Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/77 "2011-07-20T04:47:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think you mean they weren’t seen as being WHITE. > The Irish aren’t WASP, which stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Anglo-Saxon refers to English ancestry. And most Irish immigrants were Catholic. Yes, thanks. Sorry for the typo (I had a WASP statement in mind, but didn’t include it, so there was some bleed-over into the statement I did use). ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/78 "2011-07-20T05:24:28Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > My mother got totally bitched out - years and years ago - for flying an Indian flag next to the American flag in front of the house. The American flag was higher, but someone still flipped out on her, **to the point that I have never hung an Indian flag anywhere** , remembering the shitstorm that ensued. 🙂 (Bolding mine) This is sad to me, as India has one of the coolest flags in the world. [The spinning wheel, baby!](http://new.music.yahoo.com/lord-buckley/tracks/hip-gahn--209873617) ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/79 "2011-07-20T05:26:17Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Obviously, large white immigrant movements (Irish, for example) happened a long time ago, and there is a belief that “white” immigrants (who were not considered white when they got here, but that is a hugely different issue) assimilated, whereas the current large brown immigrant movement from the south of our border are not assimilating at all, even though [assimilation rates](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_53.htm)aren’t that different for recent immigrants than for immigrants from a century ago. > > Flying the Irish flag during the heyday of Irish immigration might have created the same response as I’m seeing now, but the Irish weren’t seen as “WASP” in the same sense as the current citizens of America at that time, so I would argue that that particular reaction is STILL based on “those non-white people are flying their country’s flag! Why don’t they go back, then!” I disagree - I think it’s mostly a matter of numbers. If there were scarcely any Mexican immigrants to the US (akin to the French/Irish/etc.), I suspect there’d be hardly any angst (to the extent there even is) at the sight of the Mexican flag. A thought experiment: imagine that instead of Mexicans, Russians were far and away the biggest source of legal immigrants to the US, with many millions more living and working in the country illegally. Do you _really_ think the reaction they’d get would be so different than the reaction to Mexicans today? That people would say, “Hey - they’re white! That’s all I need to know!”? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608/80 "2011-07-20T05:31:54Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I disagree - I think it’s mostly a matter of numbers. If there were scarcely any Mexican immigrants to the US (akin to the French/Irish/etc.), I suspect there’d be hardly any angst (to the extent there even is) at the sight of the Mexican flag. > > A thought experiment: imagine that instead of Mexicans, Russians were far and away the biggest source of legal immigrants to the US, with many millions more living and working in the country illegally. Do you _really_ think the reaction they’d get would be so different than the reaction to Mexicans today? That people would say, “Hey - they’re white! That’s all I need to know!”? I doubt it. Historically, there’s a good chance that the Russians would not be seen as white (again, the issue with other white immigrants being seen as “nonwhite”) and therefore having the same reaction. I’m not saying it’s not contributed to by numbers, but it’s not JUST numbers - there’s an aspect of racism to the “don’t fly your flag here!” reactions when the flag flyers are not white that isn’t there when the flag flyers are white. Of course, we may just have to agree to disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-dopers-does-it-annoy-you-when-people-fly-foreign-flags/589608.md?page=5)