American Exceptionalism: Fair and Balanced.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@XT

Do you mean that the artists aren’t exceptional? Because, seriously, if you don’t think it’s exceptional that two countries that make up less than 8% of the total worlds population have 9 of the 10 top selling musicians in them aren’t exceptional I don’t really know what to say. It boggles the mind.

I don’t think it’s exceptional, because there isn’t one nation with a big gap at the head of the pack. That’s what I would consider exceptional - not simply someone winning a race, but having to wait a good long time before entrant no.2 crosses the line.

That aside, though, I think it’s worth looking, given that we have a few different nations all up there, what they all share - and in this case, it seems to be lyrics in English. It’s quibble-able - I’d consider Celine Dion’s English-language work to be the most popular, ditto for ABBA - but you have to go all the way down to Julio Iglesias before you find someone who’s made their money in a language other than English. I’d argue English being a lingua franca across much of the world has a significant part to play in the success of the top artists, a motley collection of Americans, Brits, Canadians, Aussies, etc.

Nope, but it’s associated with the US,

I disagree. Hamburgers and hot dogs, sure. But “fast food” means a lot of different things in a lot of different nations. I’ve got a collection of menus for fast food places that get put through my door - they include fish and chips, curries, kebabs, pizza… cuisines (or bastardised cuisines) from China, Thailand, Japan. I absolutely would not consider fast food to be associated particularly with the US.

and may of the fast food franchises throughout the world are US or originally US flagged companies. You can find, say, a McDonald’s in most modern countries on the planet…same goes for KFC or even Taco Bell. Oh, there are plenty of home grown fast food places in many, many countries, and many of them do better than the US versions in those countries…but not many of them are well known outside of those individual countries, and certainly nothing like the iconic US fast food places that are.

This is changing, but right now it’s the US that has more of it’s iconic fast food places in more countries throughout the world than anyone else. And this doesn’t even count iconic US products like Coke and Pepsi.

A reasonable point.

Well, jeans and tee shirts weren’t invented in the US, but they became iconic American clothes (riveted blue jeans were, IIRC, invented by a German immigrant in the US in the late 1800’s and have become rather associated with the US).

I would not consider them to be particularly associated with America, to be honest. I don’t imagine they’re proportionally worn there the most when compared with other countries. They may well be representative of the typical American but that doesn’t mean that they are therefore particularly American in nature, or that we can put down their success to some American effect.

However, I’d say that my own take on this is more clothing with US iconic product placement, bands or the like on them. Where this really hit me was years ago when I was traveling to a remove village in South America and I saw a bunch of the kids there wearing tee shirts with Coke on them. I asked them if they even knew what a Coke was, and sure enough, they did (and asked me if I had any…sadly, I didn’t).

T-shirts made where, I wonder? If we’re counting the reach of the logo, we should probably be counting the reach of the t-shirts, too.

Yeah, I agree…I don’t think everyone everywhere wants to be an American or act like an American. Quite the opposite. However, it’s hard to deny the impact the US has had on the world, especially for the last 50 years. This global impact, IMHO, makes the US one of the very few exceptional nations in history.

I don’t deny that. But I also don’t deny that there are plenty of other nations with significant impacts on the world, especially for the last 50 years. Or nations that have “punched above their weight”. And global impact, by and large, is a matter of time period, not inherent exceptionalism.

As with the others I listed earlier (not an exhaustive list), this is transitory, and I’m sure there will be other contenders as the US global influence wanes (though this hasn’t really happened…yet), but I’m confident that the US will be remembered in a similar way to the other great nations in the past.

It’s entirely possible, but I don’t personally like to make those kinds of guesses.

[BobLibDem]

@XT

Do you mean that the artists aren’t exceptional? Because, seriously, if you don’t think it’s exceptional that two countries that make up less than 8% of the total worlds population have 9 of the 10 top selling musicians in them aren’t exceptional I don’t really know what to say. It boggles the mind.

Not really. Money drives everything, and the English speaking customers happen to buy more music than those who speak other languages. There’s simply more money to be made by English language singers than others.

[XT]

@BobLibDem

Not really. Money drives everything, and the English speaking customers happen to buy more music than those who speak other languages. There’s simply more money to be made by English language singers than others.

Begs the question…why English? Well, part of that is of course because of the British Empire, which I also say was exception. But part of it is that in the last 50 years, English is almost required as a second language in many countries. Why? Well, because Americans speak English, of course. I’ve traveled a lot in other countries, and it’s rare where you don’t find someone who speaks English, even in small villages. What’s funny, to me, is when you travel to another country and you get a bunch of folks who don’t speak each others language yet are communicating, often haltingly, in English.

I don’t understand why this reluctance to admit that the US is exceptional. It’s hard to believe anyone would not think that, considering it’s place on the worlds stage for the last 50 years or so. No other nation on the planet has the impact that the US does today. No other country, for good or bad (often bad, but not always), has the same level of recognition around the globe.

[BobLibDem]

@XT

Begs the question…why English? Well, part of that is of course because of the British Empire, which I also say was exception.

If you look at the number of speakers of each language, it seems to me that the only serious competitor to English would be Spanish as far as western music goes. And if you compare the affluence of English speaking countries to those of Spanish speaking countries, it may well be that English speaking customers are a bigger market.

[XT]

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I don’t think it’s exceptional, because there isn’t one nation with a big gap at the head of the pack. That’s what I would consider exceptional - not simply someone winning a race, but having to wait a good long time before entrant no.2 crosses the line.
[/QUOTE]

But those two nations account for 9 out of 10 on your list (and probably a lot in any top 20 or top 100 list as well). The US has 5 out of 10…and yet less than 5% of the worlds population is American. Combined with the UK we comprise less than 7% of the worlds population, yet 9 out of 10 top music artists. I don’t know how that’s not remarkable, but if you think it’s ho hum I guess that’s fine.

I disagree. Hamburgers and hot dogs, sure. But “fast food” means a lot of different things in a lot of different nations. I’ve got a collection of menus for fast food places that get put through my door - they include fish and chips, curries, kebabs, pizza… cuisines (or bastardised cuisines) from China, Thailand, Japan. I absolutely would not consider fast food to be associated particularly with the US.

And I disagree with your disagreement…somewhat. While, as with many of the things on your list here (and many other things) we didn’t invent it, we were the ones who took it to the next level AND propagated it across the globe. I think that, regardless of whether they are US companies or local (or other international non-US companies), the model for the fast food restaurant and fast food is rightfully associated with the US, even when we are talking about Chinese fast food, or kebabs (love those btw…one of the reasons I miss living on the east coast is you can’t get good kebabs out here in the food wasteland that is the south west) or pizza or Mexican, it was really the US that drove the concept globally. And, regardless of whether you believe that or not (here is a wiki on fast food if you are interested) you’d be hard pressed not to acknowledge that US flagged fast food companies are a global seller, having name and product recognition world wide. Heck, they often have better things on the menu (though sometimes really weird stuff too) than the same places back in the US.

I would not consider them to be particularly associated with America, to be honest. I don’t imagine they’re proportionally worn there the most when compared with other countries. They may well be representative of the typical American but that doesn’t mean that they are therefore particularly American in nature, or that we can put down their success to some American effect.

I think you can put it down to US TV and US movies, to be honest. When I was a kid I didn’t notice, say, Japanese in Japan wearing blue jeans and tee shirts…nor do I recall it being a big thing in any of the European countries I traveled to. But today it’s wide spread, at least the last time I was in Japan I noticed a hell of a lot of kids wearing the things (same with in Europe). I don’t know how old you are, but I think there has been a lot of change on this front in the last, oh, say 20 or so years. It would be interesting to see what folks in China wear casually (I haven’t been to Hong Kong in 30 years and that was the last time I was anywhere in China).

T-shirts made where, I wonder? If we’re counting the reach of the logo, we should probably be counting the reach of the t-shirts, too.

Oh, probably China. But who checks the tag on the back of the neck? They were American iconic products…to be similar they would need to be iconic Chinese product placement. China, for instance, has the equivalent of YouTube, Facebook and Google, and I’m sure there are plenty of 'dopers who know them or would recognize them…but I’d say that, outside of China, there would be very few who would recognize them as well as, well, YouTube, Facebook and Google (or Microsoft and Apple). This isn’t to say that other countries don’t have iconic companies…they do (Sony, Toyota, LG, Cooper, BMW etc spring to mind). But the US has a large percentage of iconic companies that are recognized globally and have pretty much instant recognition and association with the US…and, to get back to the point from the musician part in your first paragraph, we have that with less than 5% of the total worlds population.

I don’t deny that. But I also don’t deny that there are plenty of other nations with significant impacts on the world, especially for the last 50 years. Or nations that have “punched above their weight”. And global impact, by and large, is a matter of time period, not inherent exceptionalism.

Sure…I’m not denying that there are other countries that make significant impacts either. And the US is certainly waning (or, my own theory is we are still moving up, but other countries are moving up faster than we are and are overtaking us and will eventually surpass us down the road).

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is what, exactly, exceptional IS in a nation, and when a nation is exceptional. You didn’t think the British Empire, for instance, was exceptional, and I can’t see how one wouldn’t think they were in their time. Just a difference in view point really.

It’s entirely possible, but I don’t personally like to make those kinds of guesses.

Hard to see how it wouldn’t be so, unless there was a massive collapse of civilization (and even then, we still remember the Romans after all), but that’s fine…it’s pure speculation after all, since none of us will be around to find out.

[XT]

@BobLibDem

If you look at the number of speakers of each language, it seems to me that the only serious competitor to English would be Spanish as far as western music goes. And if you compare the affluence of English speaking countries to those of Spanish speaking countries, it may well be that English speaking customers are a bigger market.

I’m not certain what your cite is supposed to show. It’s a list of languages by percent of the population compiled in 2010, unless I’m missing something. But English has been becoming the second language for global business and tech for decades now, and I doubt it had anything to do with the percentage of populations that natively spoke it. French was THE international language (lingua franca, so to speak ;)…though I’m just talking about French, not a pigeon language, but couldn’t resist) , and it wasn’t because there were a lot of native French speakers…it was because France and the French Empire was so dominant (and exceptional in it’s day), thus people from other countries that spoke other languages had their kids and their more cosmopolitan types learn French to be able to communicate when they were abroad or to do business, discuss politics or do diplomacy. This is the exact same thing.

[BobLibDem]

I’m just saying that if we neglect non-western languages as being part of another music universe, then English is dominant in terms of number of speakers and the affluence of these speakers. Why aren’t French songs more popular? There’s less money to be made in French. If you’re a French singer, you may consider cutting some songs in English to pay the rent. Not many English singers have a financial need to record in French.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@XT

But those two nations account for 9 out of 10 on your list (and probably a lot in any top 20 or top 100 list as well). The US has 5 out of 10…and yet less than 5% of the worlds population is American. Combined with the UK we comprise less than 7% of the worlds population, yet 9 out of 10 top music artists. I don’t know how that’s not remarkable, but if you think it’s ho hum I guess that’s fine.

I think that the fact that there’s a big link between a vast amount of the biggest-selling artists - that they’re English-speaking - suggests that what is exceptional isn’t the US or the UK, just that that seems to be the language that’s a second language for a lot of people.

And I disagree with your disagreement…somewhat. While, as with many of the things on your list here (and many other things) we didn’t invent it, we were the ones who took it to the next level AND propagated it across the globe. I think that, regardless of whether they are US companies or local (or other international non-US companies), the model for the fast food restaurant and fast food is rightfully associated with the US, even when we are talking about Chinese fast food, or kebabs (love those btw…one of the reasons I miss living on the east coast is you can’t get good kebabs out here in the food wasteland that is the south west) or pizza or Mexican, it was really the US that drove the concept globally. And, regardless of whether you believe that or not

I’m afraid I don’t! Fast food has been around as long as someone at a food stall in a market decided they could get on well by cooking the food to order too. The concept really isn’t anything particularly associated with America that I can tell or would personally say, nor was America the tip of the spearhead that propagated it across the world.

(here is a wiki on fast food if you are interested) you’d be hard pressed not to acknowledge that US flagged fast food companies are a global seller, having name and product recognition world wide. Heck, they often have better things on the menu (though sometimes really weird stuff too) than the same places back in the US.

That I’ll agree with - but that’s an argument for the exceptionalism of US food chains. We’d need more to make an argument for general American excellence.

I think you can put it down to US TV and US movies, to be honest. When I was a kid I didn’t notice, say, Japanese in Japan wearing blue jeans and tee shirts…nor do I recall it being a big thing in any of the European countries I traveled to. But today it’s wide spread, at least the last time I was in Japan I noticed a hell of a lot of kids wearing the things (same with in Europe). I don’t know how old you are, but I think there has been a lot of change on this front in the last, oh, say 20 or so years. It would be interesting to see what folks in China wear casually (I haven’t been to Hong Kong in 30 years and that was the last time I was anywhere in China).

I’m from a European country - in my experience, you’re wrong, at least about Europe.

But how exactly are we pegging it to US TV and movies? Those fashions, after all, are dictated by what people actually wear. Why can’t we equally say that the t-shirt and jeans isn’t a British style, and therefore popular? Or French? Or German? You’ve mentioned the ubiquitous nature of the t-shirt throughout the world - what nation can’t we say it isn’t down to, if it’s worn all over the world? Saying it can be put down to US media seems like starting with a conclusion and working back to see how it fits in, rather than the other way around.

Oh, probably China. But who checks the tag on the back of the neck?

Us, when looking at the global reach of nations, no? It seems a little unfair to see someone wearing a Coke t-shirt, count it as a win for American Coke, but not as a win for the nation that has products it’s made.

They were American iconic products…to be similar they would need to be iconic Chinese product placement. China, for instance, has the equivalent of YouTube, Facebook and Google, and I’m sure there are plenty of 'dopers who know them or would recognize them…but I’d say that, outside of China, there would be very few who would recognize them as well as, well, YouTube, Facebook and Google (or Microsoft and Apple).

But again - this is a language thing, not an American thing. People use YouTube, Facebook, and Google, because they’re designed with English in mind, populated by English-speaking users (for the most part). How many people around the world know one language, and then also English? How many people around the world know one language, and then also a Chinese one? It’s potential audience, not excellence.

This isn’t to say that other countries don’t have iconic companies…they do (Sony, Toyota, LG, Cooper, BMW etc spring to mind). But the US has a large percentage of iconic companies that are recognized globally and have pretty much instant recognition and association with the US…and, to get back to the point from the musician part in your first paragraph, we have that with less than 5% of the total worlds population.

I’d actually be interested in seeing some statistics. I’m not convinced that the US has an exceptionally larger proportion of recognised, iconic companies than everyone else.

And of your examples of others, I note that you have two Japanese companies (less than 2% of world population), one Korean (less than 1%), one British (less than 1%), and one German (less than 1.2%). I really don’t think pointing to the US being one of the most populous nations on the planet does for your argument what you think it does.

Sure…I’m not denying that there are other countries that make significant impacts either. And the US is certainly waning (or, my own theory is we are still moving up, but other countries are moving up faster than we are and are overtaking us and will eventually surpass us down the road).

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is what, exactly, exceptional IS in a nation, and when a nation is exceptional. You didn’t think the British Empire, for instance, was exceptional, and I can’t see how one wouldn’t think they were in their time. Just a difference in view point really.

I guess the issue is that I don’t think there’s something inherent to Britishness or the British people or character that made it so. That’s usually the context I hear claims of exceptionalism put in. And while Britain may have had the largest empire, everyone had empires back then. Being the biggest doesn’t make you exceptional in my book, not alone.

[sqweels]

Has the rest of the world voted to grant the US exceptional status and awarded us with a special badge?

[eschereal]

No, just a short bus.

[The_Joker_and_the_Thief]

@sqweels

Has the rest of the world voted to grant the US exceptional status and awarded us with a special badge?

How is the relative status of the United States, as determined by real factors, possibly conditional on the beliefs of other nations? Can the rest of the world, simply by voting, change reality?

If the United States is an exceptional nation, the vote of every single person on earth could not change that fact.

(I’ll respond to the other substantive posts in this thread soon. But this was glaring.)

[Bryan_Ekers]

The problem with exceptionalism is that it’s so commonplace nowadays.

[up_the_junction]

Isn’t exceptionalism an inherent problem at the top of all hierarchies?

If the boss want to leave early on Fridays he’s going to leave early on Fridays. If the USA wants to impose culturally, economically and militarily all over the world it will.

[marshmallow]

There’s several components to it. One being objective reality that America is a historically notable hegemon that spreads its culture around the globe. Another component is a moral argument for action or our capabilities, often only one step away from white nationalism on the right, some dewy-eyed bromide about the successes of social diversity on the left. Both sides often appeal to our role on the world stage, making it basically a PC version of the white man’s burden.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@The_Joker_and_the_Thief

If the United States is an exceptional nation, the vote of every single person on earth could not change that fact.

While you’re right as a general point - voting doesn’t change the truth, just indicates what people want to vote for - I’d argue that a worldwide election of people that ended up declaring that the US was exceptional would actually be pretty exceptional in and of itself.

[Tibby]

With regard to culture, fashion and music, I believe 1950’s Americana was particularly impactful on the world stage and can still be illustrated to this day in foreign subcultures like the Reggare Movement. I can’t think of any other country whose popular culture would be actively mimicked over half a century later by a sizable segment of another country’s inhabitants.

Maybe neo-Nazis (fashion and ideology perhaps, not so much music :D) or kids play-acting Ninjas are distant contenders, I dunno.

[Buck_Godot]

@Alessan

You Americans think you’re so special - I’ll have you know that *every *country has its own version of “exceptionalism”. Everyone believes, to one degree or another, that the same rules that apply to the rest of the world, don’t apply here. It’s just the way people are.

True, but I think the United States takes this to an exceptional level.

**
USA! USA! USA!**

[BrainGlutton]

@Alessan

You Americans think you’re so special - I’ll have you know that *every *country has its own version of “exceptionalism”. Everyone believes, to one degree or another, that the same rules that apply to the rest of the world, don’t apply here. It’s just the way people are.

Israeli exceptionalism I would expect, Japanese exceptionalism I would expect, but I find it hard to believe there is such thing as, say, Filipino exceptionalism or Gambian exceptionalism.

[BrainGlutton]

@Shodan

America is the most powerful country in the world, militarily, economically, and culturally.

And before that it was Britain, and before that it was France, and before that it was Spain, and for a very long time it was China.

[Teach-me-not]

A lot of the argument in this thread in support of exceptionalism, it seems to me, reduces to the US being a very powerful country.

A weak argument IMHO. I think money and power has historically followed a Pareto distribution. It’s not surprising that a single country (or a small group of countries) dominates the world political scenario – it’s really what I expect. To call this exceptional is a bit of a stretch.

Sorry, no cites.