American Exceptionalism: Fair and Balanced.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Onomatopoeia

Not only is this not true, it is an insult to all non Israelis who have a deep, abiding love of their country.

Well I didn’t mean it that way. But not every country is rooted in a 5000+ year old cultural history, especially not one as fraught as the Jews’. It brings me to an idea this thread has given me, which is to look at the ‘muse’ of various exceptional nations. You seem pretty good with words, maybe you can help me think of a better word to use here.

The muse of Israel is going to have to be YHWH, or at least ‘Jewish cultural history’. We can judge the muse on its own merits, and also by results. YHWH seems to have done pretty well as a muse, except of course for the innumerable times in history when somebody tried to make things miserable for the Jews.

Okay, looking at some other exceptional empires, I’d say the muse of Rome was Victory. I know they had Zeus and Athena and all the rest, but it was the statue of Victory which stood in the Senate chamber for all those centuries (I think it was the goddess Nike, but I am not 100% sure). We can see the importance of an imperial muse in this case- Rome executed a guy called Jesus, or so the story goes. Anyway, in one of the best comeback stories in all of history, the dead Jesus just gains more and more influence until, about 4 centuries later, he deposes the Roman muse Victory and replaces it with himself. I don’t know if he set the controls for the center of the Earth or what, but Rome subsequently crashed and burned. I think it ‘lost its soul’ and couldn’t function after that. Not that Jesus is necessarily a bad muse, but bad for Rome. Victory made them pretty ruthless, and even the Romans themselves thought they were immoral, and bemoaned it.

Well, Jesus got a second act with the HRE. I’ll let others parse the success of this; I question whether they had to be so cruel, considering.

We can look at the British Empire. Their muse seems to have been some kind of false pride, condescension and cruelty. Ugh, I don’t want to talk about it.

We could go on. I think America’s muse is Providence. Now, you can poke holes in the literal veracity of this line of thought all day, it doesn’t matter. Metaphor is the realm of the gods, and also muses I suppose. Providence gave the Colonies victory over Britain. Providence is the author of the Manifest Destiny, and in those days the national muse was especially present. Providence provided a whole fucked up world for America to intervene in militarily to put itself in a preeminent position. What will Providence do next?!? I don’t know, but it is an awesome muse.

Getting back to Israel, c’mon, YHWH is an awesome muse too, and few countries can boast as good a one. Look at Rhodesia for instance, “once upon a time there was this colossal racist asshole…” Pffft! Nothing to hang your hat on there, and Rhodesia came and went like so many others.

It is fiction.As the assertion is not true, there is nothing to take away.

It doesn’t matter if it is literally true. You point out elsewhere in your post the stereotypical Jewish obsession with success. Well, they’ve been telling their kids this YHWH story for centuries, and they seem to be pretty focused generation after generation…

You really believe that the nonsense of ‘the chosen people’ is what has earned Jewish people animus over the years? Really?It couldn’t be anything empiric, such as having an ingrained philosophy of achievement and success that other cultures that have become lazy and entitled are so threatened by it that they lash out and try to destroy the Jews rather than improve themselves?

I think it is both. I think the Jews have occupied some annoying niches in other peoples’ societies, but it all traces back to this YHWH thing, and some mindsets in some parts of history have noticed and zereod in on that. I’m not any kind of expert on Judaism or Israel fwiw, anyone can feel free to correct my homespun views.

Well, you’re trying not to be.

I see what you did there, wordsmith. Fine, but I AM being sincere, you don’t have to get snippy about it.

This has less to do with Israel than it does the focused mindset of Jewish people, wherever they are, throughout the world. Let’s not get started on the crap Israel has gone through, much of which of late has occurred as a result of acts committed by the government, in the name of, but not the behest of, the people.

Well, the ‘mindset’, the ‘Jewish cultural heritage’ is this YHWH thing, literal or not. It motivates Jews, it motivates Israel, am I wrong?

A fair bit of religious fervor? A fair bit? Quite the understatement, I’d say.

So? Again, Providence has been evident to the American people at various times through history. A lot of people want to claim this for evangelical purposes, or for other purposes, and yes people are kind of nuts too, but such an experience is fuel for religious behavior/belief of all flavors.

American exceptionalism, as expressed by today’s movement conservatives in America is composed of so much jingoism it makes my teeth hurt, and has more to do with a whitewash of the mechanisms employed throughout its short history to get America to what it is today than any of the honor spun from whole cloth its proponents espouse.

Well there are certain kinds of political machines that generate thoughts on various subjects and project them with force onto the broader population. I have my own thoughts on the subject which may not qualify as jingoism, but even then, feel free to criticize away!

And here is where I, unfortunately, veer from the topic. I don’t mean to call you out specifically for this, Try2B, as I have seen this usage for years by many on this very board. You just happened to be the poster who used this word incorrectly on the day I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. The word is ‘crescendo’. Crescendo is a rising, or building, or increasing intensity of a thing. It is not the achievement or the apex of a thing. One does not reach a crescendo, for goodness sake! Please make a note of this.

You are absolutely right. I should not have got this wrong, I am a music guy even. There is a Providence-driven crescendo in American history though- the generally constant acquisition of wealth, power, and influence. But it refers to what you describe, and not some kind of zenith. Sometimes I need this kind of editing :smack:

Back to our regularly scheduled rant.The United States of America has been in existence for just 239 years. Touting the “so far” as though it has existed for millennia is a bit premature, no?

Ha! I mean it even more short-term than that- the era of American preeminence that I date to the aftermath of WWII. I guess these kinds of things do take place on rather long timelines. That America’s is so short to have come so far is… exceptional!

[Tibby]

And, in case I didn’t make my point clear enough, please allow me to include an addendum:

@Tibby or Not Tibby

Fair enough. You’re starting to convince me. Let me just mull over your ideas in my head while I finish my Big Mac®, chased with a Coca Cola®, then get in my Ford F-150® and listen to cool Jazz® on my Apple IPod® and get home before my favorite show, American Idol® starts.

Hey, O, here’s an idea! Why don’t you join me at my home and we can debate this topic in person?? Just exit Route 66 at exit 1776, (just beyond the ASPCA headquarters), then drive 10 miles till you reach the NAACP building, take a left, then drive 5 miles till you get to the gay bathhouse (pink building, on the right), then turn right and drive 3 miles to the Yogurt shop owned by those three women. My house is catty-corner to them.

Let’s then debate the issue of American exceptionalism. Afterwards we can watch a movie! What would you like to watch? American Graffiti? American Beauty? American Pie? American History X? American Splendor? An American Werewolf in London? American Pop? American Psycho?..you name it; I’ll stream it, from Amazon® video.

I’m not making a value judgment, just stating what should be an obvious fact—America dominates the world in most things people care about.

*Oh, you say you can do those same exact things in your country? Croatia, Zimbabwe, Ecuador, New Zealand …some science lab sequestered in the middle of Antarctica? Well, bully for you!

All hail Coca Cola!*

[amanset]

@Trinopus

Why? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Even if it’s wrong (and why would it be wrong?) it isn’t stupid. As far as I can tell, this is one of the least cogent rebuttals I’ve ever read on the SDMB.

It is incredibly insular, not only assuming that all other countries think the same way as his own but also that it is the only way to think and succeed.

I’m a Brit and live in Sweden. In either of those countries if you’d ask someone if they had “pride in their country” you’d be most likely to get a confused expression back.

And both countries do rather well, thank you very much. Hell, Sweden is usually very high up there in the happiness and freedom lists.

[amanset]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

Fair enough. You’re starting to convince me. Let me just mull over your ideas in my head while I finish my Big Mac®, chased with a Coca Cola®, then get in my Ford F-150® and listen to cool Jazz® on my Apple IPod® and get home before my favorite show, American Idol® starts.

Hey, O, here’s an idea! Why don’t you join me at my home and we can debate this topic in person?? Just exit Route 66 at exit 1776, (just beyond the ASPCA headquarters), then drive 10 miles till you reach the NAACP building, take a left, then drive 5 miles till you get to the gay bathhouse (pink building, on the right), then turn right and drive 3 miles to the Yogurt shop owned by those three women. My house is catty-corner to them.

Let’s then debate the issue of American exceptionalism. Afterwards we can watch a movie! What would you like to watch? American Graffiti? American Beauty? American Pie? American History X? American Splendor? An American Werewolf in London? American Pop? American Psycho?..you name it; I’ll stream it, from Amazon® video.

I’m not making a value judgment, just stating what should be an obvious fact—America dominates the world in most things people care about.

Which just goes to show that many Americans assume that everyone does the same stuff or that they are aware of the same stuff.

I haven’t clue what a F-150 looks like. Hell, I’m taking it on faith that it exists. In the UK Ford practically tries to pretend they are a British company and has since a long, long time ago been run as one. Here in Sweden you pretty much don’t see Ford cars at all. The market is dominated by Volvo and Volkswagen. Apparently Ford is 12th and there are two US companies in the top twenty.

http://focus2move.com/sweden-car-market-statistics-bestselling-25-brands-and-models/

You are aware that American idol is merely a US version of a British original (“Pop Idol”), which is why for a long time it had a Brit as one of the judges? It is a format that is sold the world over, with pretty much every Western country having their own version? here in Sweden the local version is simply called “Idol”.

Exit 1776? Am I supposed to know about that?

Fuck knows what you are going on about with the yoghurt whatever section. You think you’re the only place that cares about human rights? Shit, many would argue the US is one of the worst Western countries as far as human rights are.

The films? At least two of them were directed by Brits. If I go to SF’s (Svenska Filmindustri) website, the next five films they are talking about in the news section are:

BALETT - LA FILLE MAL GARDEE (LIVE) (UK)
Child 44 (US/UK, directed by a Swede, starring a load of Brits and based on a book by a Brit)
MIN VÄN ANTOINE (France)
PAUL BLART: MALL COP 2 (US)
Samba (France)

Oh and Amazon do not stream in this country. We do have our own services though.

I am genuinely amused by your post. It pretty much sums up why foreigners find the attitudes of many Americans so amusing. So lacking in awareness.

[UDS]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

Fair enough. You’re starting to convince me. Let me just mull over your ideas in my head while I finish my Big Mac®, chased with a Coca Cola®, then get in my Ford F-150® and listen to cool Jazz® on my Apple IPod® and get home before my favorite show, American Idol® starts.

Hey, O, here’s an idea! Why don’t you join me at my home and we can debate this topic in person?? Just exit Route 66 at exit 1776, (just beyond the ASPCA headquarters), then drive 10 miles till you reach the NAACP building, take a left, then drive 5 miles till you get to the gay bathhouse (pink building, on the right), then turn right and drive 3 miles to the Yogurt shop owned by those three women. My house is catty-corner to them.

Let’s then debate the issue of American exceptionalism. Afterwards we can watch a movie! What would you like to watch? American Graffiti? American Beauty? American Pie? American History X? American Splendor? An American Werewolf in London? American Pop? American Psycho?..you name it; I’ll stream it, from Amazon® video.

I’m not making a value judgment, just stating what should be an obvious fact—America dominates the world in most things people care about.

I’ve gotta say I think you overestimate the degree of American cultural penetration in the rest of the world, in some respects. I haven’t the remotest idea what the ASPCA is, I have to think before I recall the NAACP, I don’t consider yogurt an American contribution to the culinary arts, I have never seen American Idol which is not not broadcast in my country. Amazon video is not available to me. And most people in my country drive Japanese or European cars.

I’ll grant you America’s pre-eminent role in the global entertainment industry, but I don’t think that’s quite enough to justify a claim about “most things people care about”.

Yes, the US has made enormous contributions to the world. Myself, I’d have mentioned the ideals of the American revolution before the Big Mac, but maybe that’s just because the things I care about are not the things you care about?

[Ken001]

@amanset

Which just goes to show that many Americans assume that everyone does the same stuff or that they are aware of the same stuff.

I haven’t clue what a F-150 looks like. Hell, I’m taking it on faith that it exists…

I am genuinely amused by your post. It pretty much sums up why foreigners find the attitudes of many Americans so amusing. So lacking in awareness.

LOL nicely expressed.

[Ken001]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

I think America’s muse is Providence…gave the Colonies victory over Britain.

Providence is the author of the Manifest Destiny…

Providence provided a whole fucked up world for America to intervene in militarily to put itself in a preeminent position. What will Providence do next?!? I don’t know, but it is an awesome muse.

…the era of American preeminence that I date to the aftermath of WWII…is so short to have come so far is…exceptional!

I respect your sincerity.

Accepting American Exceptionalism and Providence, could you please explain napalm to Kim Phuc?

https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/napalmgirl.jpg?w=620

[Odesio]

@Alessan

You Americans think you’re so special - I’ll have you know that *every *country has its own version of “exceptionalism”. Everyone believes, to one degree or another, that the same rules that apply to the rest of the world, don’t apply here. It’s just the way people are.

To be fair we’re often told by Europeans how “crazy” we are because we have guns, how shocking it is that we elect sheriffs and judges, and they often seem shocked in other ways that we’re not quite like them. It’s hard not to feel exceptional.

But then you live in God’s country, Alessan. You’re super exceptional!

[Tibby]

Jeesh, all the dang foreigners come out of the woodwork in the middle of the American night—eating their Marmite and posting snarky things and such. :dubious:

I believe it’s time for us to make them switch to good old American time zones, and adhere to a strict curfew.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Ken001

I respect your sincerity.

Accepting American Exceptionalism and Providence, could you please explain napalm to Kim Phuc?

https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/napalmgirl.jpg?w=620

That’s fair. America is cruel too, like Rome, the HRE, and Britain before it. Everyone wishes it wasn’t so.

What’s the answer?

[Stringbean]

@amanset

It is incredibly insular, not only assuming that all other countries think the same way as his own but also that it is the only way to think and succeed.

I’m a Brit and live in Sweden. In either of those countries if you’d ask someone if they had “pride in their country” you’d be most likely to get a confused expression back.

And both countries do rather well, thank you very much. Hell, Sweden is usually very high up there in the happiness and freedom lists.

What kept the Brits’ spirits high in the trenches of northern France? A middling ambivalence?

The English Crown thought itself a ho-hum signatory of mediocrity?

:rolleyes:

The rejection of national pride is a result of WW2, and is largely beholden only to European nations who have had to accept their decline in relevance with respect to America and the (now-defunct) Soviets. You guys lost your exceptionalism and have resolved to half-assed cynicism. Maybe if Europe finds its pride it can uncling itself from bygone times.

[amanset]

@Stringbean

What kept the Brits’ spirits high in the trenches of northern France? A middling ambivalence?

The English Crown thought itself a ho-hum signatory of mediocrity?

:rolleyes:

The rejection of national pride is a result of WW2, and is largely beholden only to European nations who have had to accept their decline in relevance with respect to America and the (now-defunct) Soviets. You guys lost your exceptionalism and have resolved to half-assed cynicism. Maybe if Europe finds its pride it can uncling itself from bygone times.

If all that can keep your spirits high is a feeling of pride in your country then there are much, much deeper issues in play.

I’d say Europeans simply have a more realistic idea of what is important in life.

[Siam_Sam]

I doubt any country can beat the sense of Thai Exceptionalism. The most extreme case – definitely a minority but not difficult to find – is the notion that any and everything that’s good in the world came from Thailand. For example, I have met Thais who just about pissed themselves laughing so hard at the notion that farangs (Westerners) drove cars back home, because obviously automobiles were a Thai invention. Really. Anything good originated in Thailand, be it in nature or something technological. Again, that’s extreme, but the feeling seems present in everyone here to some degree.

[PhillyGuy]

@amanset

I’m a Brit and live in Sweden. In either of those countries if you’d ask someone if they had “pride in their country” you’d be most likely to get a confused expression back.

I can’t argue with you about Sweden. But:

Rule Britannia - Last Night of the Proms 2009

[amanset]

[quote=“PhillyGuy, post:114, topic:718420”]

I can’t argue with you about Sweden. But:

[/QUOTE]

You may be amazed to find out the The Last Night of the Proms may not be indicative of how the common man thinks.

[grude]

@Siam_Sam

I doubt any country can beat the sense of Thai Exceptionalism. The most extreme case – definitely a minority but not difficult to find – is the notion that any and everything that’s good in the world came from Thailand. For example, I have met Thais who just about pissed themselves laughing so hard at the notion that farangs (Westerners) drove cars back home, because obviously automobiles were a Thai invention. Really. Anything good originated in Thailand, be it in nature or something technological. Again, that’s extreme, but the feeling seems present in everyone here to some degree.

Wait they actually believe there are no cars in western nations? Thailand has a lot of immigration to the west so that is a hard one to believe.

[Siam_Sam]

@grude

Wait they actually believe there are no cars in western nations? Thailand has a lot of immigration to the west so that is a hard one to believe.

As I said, they are in a definite minority. But I have met Thais who think that if the rest of the world has cars, then it must be because they got the idea for them from Thailand, because all good things without exception come from Thailand. Period. Again, a minority, but they do exist. And again, that sentiment, in somewhat milder, much less extreme form, seems present in the population in general.

[Trinopus]

Well, Thai cuisine (although perhaps heavily Americanized) came from Thailand, and it certainly is a good thing, so I’ll forgive them a bit of chauvinism regarding cars!

[Siam_Sam]

This is not that different from Japan too. I have read of exchange students who were gobsmacked to discover that much of the rest of the world has four distinct seasons. They thought that was just one of many things that made Japan unique and better than everyone else.

[The_Joker_and_the_Thief]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Well I didn’t mean it that way. But not every country is rooted in a 5000+ year old cultural history, especially not one as fraught as the Jews’. It brings me to an idea this thread has given me, which is to look at the ‘muse’ of various exceptional nations. You seem pretty good with words, maybe you can help me think of a better word to use here.

I’m pretty sure the word you are looking for is ‘ethos’ or a synonym like ‘essence’.

I think the difference between American exceptionalism and Thai or Japanese exceptionalism is that the US really did invent an enormous amount of stuff, both in absolute terms and relative to our population. Sure, we had better technology–but the question is why we had better technology. And that boils down, IMO, to values that encouraged work and a social structure that provided incentives for beneficial economic activity.