# American Exceptionalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015 "2012-05-24T22:15:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/21 "2012-05-25T02:23:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > By the same token, anyone who says the US is just like every other nation is, IMHO delusional or blinded by bias. That could be said for ANY country, Australia is unlike any nation in the world, so is Iraq, Uzbekistan, Samoa etc etc. Yes the US does have some major impact on the world but I would go as far to say that it China, Greece, Germany and the Middle East are having a larger impact on the world financially. So is America exceptional? Yes, but it is not better. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/22 "2012-05-25T02:23:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Exceptional doesn’t equal best at everything, including the best place to live. I realize that some folks using the term mean that the US is the ‘best’ at, well, everything, but I don’t see it that way. By the same token, anyone who says the US is just like every other nation is, IMHO delusional or blinded by bias. Pretty clearly at this point in history we ARE exceptional and have joined the dubious ranks of past exceptional nations or empires. That might not be the case a hundred years from today…look at Rome or the British Empire to see past fairs of ‘exceptional’ nations…but right now, today the US is exceptional among the nations of our time. > > (sorry didn’t directly answer you Trinopus, but on travel and don’t have the mental energy tonight to cut and paste with the iPad and give your post the more lengthy answer it deserves). > > -XT But, the doctrine of “American Exceptionalism” assumes the U.S. had an exceptional character at inception/independence, **before** it became a mighty empire. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/23 "2012-05-25T02:26:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the doctrine of “American Exceptionalism” assumes the U.S. had an exceptional character at inception/independence, **before** it became a mighty empire. Explaining that as the will of sky-buddy resolves the question quite neatly without the need for tiresome historical facts. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/24 "2012-05-25T02:59:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the doctrine of “American Exceptionalism” assumes the U.S. had an exceptional character at inception/independence, **before** it became a mighty empire. Well it did in many ways that shaped the world forever. The U.S. isn’t perfect but we have operated under the same Constitution for 225 years with only a few hiccups compared to other countries. Did you have any interest in U.S. or world history? You should be able to see it for yourself. The U.S. is EXCEPTIONAL in world history terms and statistical terms. That isn’t a value judgement. Lots of other countries like Canada are great to live in as well but Canada would not exist in its current form without the U.S. and the same goes to a lesser extent for other countries including France. This type of argument gets old because people see flaws in something and think there must be a much better one out there so the obvious answer couldn’t be the correct one even if it is. Exceptional to me means long-term government, stability, individual freedoms, economic strength, world influence, and flexibility to changing circumstances. You only get one choice on who stands above the crowd. What country is it? That is a serious question. I will end this now with one of my favorite songs. Please [bow your heads, hold hands, and sing along.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q65KZIqay4E) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/25 "2012-05-25T03:08:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the doctrine of “American Exceptionalism” assumes the U.S. had an exceptional character at inception/independence, **before** it became a mighty empire. Is it fair to say that there are variants of the doctrine? That might be the “strong form” of the principle, but isn’t there room for a “weak form” in competition? (Just as with the Gaia hypothesis or the Anthropic principle, or the AI principle, etc.) “Moderate” American exceptionalism might suggest that, yes, America is exceptional, but, after all, one nation or other pretty much has to be. Fifty years from now, it might be China, just as a century ago it was Great Britain. It’s just a contingency of history. If the American Civil War had succeeded, Germany might be the world’s exceptional power today. The U.S. had a huge advantage in the 18th century: a gigantic hinterland, chock-full of natural resources, and inhabited by people who had no means of defending their sovereignty. Spain was Europe’s exceptional nation for a period, based largely on plundered Aztec and Incan gold; the U.S. is exceptional, at least in part, based on plundered land. If the Spanish, or the Russians, or the British, or even the Chinese, had been more aggressive, the western U.S. might be part of another hegemony entirely. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/26 "2012-05-25T03:09:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is it fair to say that there are variants of the doctrine? That might be the “strong form” of the principle, but isn’t there room for a “weak form” in competition? No, there isn’t. “American Exceptionalism” is more ontological than that. Everybody knows we’re an empire now, and that there have been many other empires in history, and many know some of the FFs had some bad things to say about empires; you don’t base exceptionalism on that. Nor on wealth. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/27 "2012-05-25T03:44:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, there isn’t. “American Exceptionalism” is more ontological than that. Everybody knows we’re an empire now, Except we aren’t. We just have an exceptionally large amount of influence due to having the largest economy and military in the history of mankind. What makes the USA “exceptional”, or at the very least sort of interesting from a historical point of view is our history. It is basically a nation created from scratch a few hundred years ago from the refuse of all the respectable nations. And in that time, it has managed to become the most powerful nation on Earth and has, for the most part (but not always), been a positive influence. And actually, when you look at some of these other countries that are far older and less diverse and still can’t get their shit to gether, I find it amusing that people take it for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/28 "2012-05-25T05:54:34Z")
There’s rational discourse exceptionalism and political attack exceptionalism. It’s useless to talk about the latter; it’s a tawdry version of the concept–either you’re on my team and I believe any of your pronouncements and understand what you’re saying or you’re the (political) enemy and there is no way you have the ‘proper’ values. Basically, fuck off. Rational exceptionalism means (to me) that no matter what positives you have to say about your country, it’s okay to acknowledge its weaknesses and faults–that doesn’t detract from the good. Plus, being exceptional doesn’t mean everyone else sucks. To put it another way, Mrs. Devil loves me very much. To her, I am an exceptional person, her True Blave and all that. But that doesn’t prevent her from honestly acknowledging that I can be a complete asshole from time to time, or that her friend’s husbands have good qualities as well. It means (not _just_ means) that she recognizes that there are a host of qualities and aspects that make me exceptional. Same for America. The sad thing is, though that’s the basic approach I’ll take with the Dudeling as he grows, either the current political climate of focused malignance or my growing cynicism (likely both) have come to believe that the institutions that make for the greatness of our political system are tainted and no longer reflective of the myth. Given history (I didn’t live through either McCarthyism or the Trail of Tears or …), I’m not sure it ever did. I need a cookie. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/29 "2012-05-25T06:11:24Z")
“Doctrine” seems a bit grandioise for what is basically a biker gang mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/30 "2012-05-25T06:33:03Z")
Exceptionalism used to have a more precise meaning. It didn’t just mean that your country was special or better than the rest. Exceptionalism used to mean that your country was immune to some phenomenon that affected every other country - that your country was the proverbial exception to the rule. The phrase American exceptionalism was coined by Joseph Stalin of all people. Some American Marxists had claimed that while every other country would eventually succumb to class warfare and emerge into an inevitable communist society, the United States would not. They said that there were unique factors in the United States that would prevent a Marxist triumph here. Stalin said Marxism would triumph everywhere and denounced the idea of “American exceptionalism”. That said, obviously the American Communists didn’t regard this American exceptionalism as a good thing - they’d have preferred to see the United States become Communist. While Stalin coined the phrase the idea had already long existed. There were people who argued that the United States wouldn’t experience the same economic decline that other countries experienced because the United States had an open frontier. Or they argued that the United States wouldn’t suffer political unrest like other nations had because the United States didn’t have an inherited class structure. Or they argued that America’s colonial empire wouldn’t suffer the problems that other colonial powers suffered because the United States had a democratic character. In every case, it was an argument that came down to “sure, that happens to everyone else but it won’t happen to us - because we’re different.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/31 "2012-05-25T13:17:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As an Obama supporter, I pick lying. Yes, but it’s the harmless \*ceremonial \*sort of lying you’ll find in any flagwaving patriotic speech by any American pol. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/32 "2012-05-25T13:50:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Except we aren’t. We just have an exceptionally large amount of influence due to having the largest economy and military in the history of mankind. Substitute “superpower” for “empire” if you like, then. The fact remains, whatever you call what America is now, Red Tom Jefferson wouldn’t **like** it. (Might even have second thoughts about the Louisiana Purchase.) Not that that should matter to us now, Jefferson was wrong about a **lot** of things (Hamilton was more often right); but, one thing Pat Buchanan is right about is that most of the FFs wanted “A Republic, Not an Empire.” And it is the **Republic** – in its pre-superpower characteristics – that is supposed to be/have been “exceptional.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/33 "2012-05-25T14:00:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The phrase American exceptionalism was coined by Joseph Stalin of all people. The **phrase,** perhaps. The **notion** [is older:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism#Origins) > [@](#): > > Historian Dorothy Ross discussed three currents in American exceptionalism: > > 1.Protestant American Christians believed American progress would lead to the Christian Millennium."[9] > > 2.American writers also linked their history to the development of liberty in Anglo-Saxon England, even back to the traditions of the Teutonic tribes that conquered the western Roman empire.[10] > > 3.Other American writers looked to the “millennial newness” of America, seeing the mass of “virgin land” promised an escape from the decay that befell earlier republics.[11] > > The French writer Alexis de Tocqueville first wrote about it in his 1831 work, Democracy in America:[12] > > > [@](#): > > > > The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.[13] > > American exceptionalism is closely tied to the idea of Manifest Destiny,[14] a term used by Jacksonian Democrats in the 1840s to promote the acquisition of much of what is now the Western United States (the Oregon Territory, the Texas Annexation, the Gadsden Purchase, and the Mexican Cession). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/34 "2012-05-25T14:00:37Z")
It’s kind of a silly concept, the notion that your nation is somehow uniquely blessed and special. If you genuinely feel that the US can do no wrong because it is the US, then you’re taking it too far. If you’re concerned about candidates for office wearing flag pins on their lapels, perhaps you need to rethink your priorities. Is the US better than Laos? Sure. Is it better than Sweden? Not so sure. If we had universal health care and didn’t raise a stink about minority religions building houses of worship in our towns, then maybe we’d be special. Unti then, let’s get over ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/35 "2012-05-25T14:04:39Z")
Of course America is exceptional. Not as exceptional as we have been in the past and our exceptionalism may be slipping these days to the point that we may only be of average exceptionalism. Still, that is American Exceptionalism which is better than other country’s Exceptionalism for reasons that are obvious to any true American. The important thing is that America not allow an exceptionalism gap to form. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/36 "2012-05-25T14:05:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, but it’s the harmless \*ceremonial \*sort of lying you’ll find in any flagwaving patriotic speech by any American pol. In other words, it’s bullshit, as H.G. Frankfurt defined it. Frankfurt distinguished between lying and bullshit thus; lying is when you are attempting to deceive or cheat someone by saying things that you know are untrue. Bullshit is when you say things without regard for the truth (bullshit can contain some truth; it doesn’t matter) for the sake of pandering, appearance, or political correctness, and you might not actually be deceiving anyone or even trying to. So, Obama was not lying. He was bullshitting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/37 "2012-05-25T14:24:51Z")
Call it what you like; just don’t single him out for doing what anyone in his profession in this country is required to do routinely. Now: Do you still think it’s bullshitting if the audience _knows_, and is expected to know, and even likes, that they’re being bullshat? The listeners have a ceremonial role to play too. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/38 "2012-05-25T16:46:25Z")
The thing with being top dog, and the US has clearly been top dog for a good few decades, is knowing when to gracefully bow out before you over-extend. See Empires _passim_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/39 "2012-05-25T16:54:04Z")
I dunno, these days exceptionalism seems more likely to be used as an excuse to protect America’s moneyed class: “Who cares if government-funded health care leads to longer lifespans and lower costs in Canada and Europe? That doesn’t prove it’ll work here! We’re exceptional!” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015/40 "2012-05-25T17:13:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I dunno, these days exceptionalism seems more likely to be used as an excuse to protect America’s moneyed class: You are probably right about that. Not a US-exceptional thing unfortunately, there are analogues used by the corresponding entities across the capitalist world. In the UK we seem to have a protected class of “wealth creators” who can basically shit on everybody else. Edit: different thread I guess [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/623015.md?page=3)