# American Exceptionalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853 "2016-07-01T05:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/41 "2016-07-01T17:01:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Do we have racism here? Yes, but what society doesn’t? Europe is no bastion of racial liberalism; It is compared to America. The UK, Germany, and France are more inclusive of blacks into their cultures than America from my vantage point. It isn’t odd to see blacks and whites commingling organically in these countries as it STILL is in the US. In fact, openly-expressed racism and xenophobism in America, if anything, has had a strong resurgence in recent years. It doesn’t just exist, it is crawling out from beneath its hiding place into the light with increasing frequency and boldness. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > if they had blacks in their countries, it would be far worse. What do you mean by if? They do have blacks in their countries. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Is America perfect? No its not; and its OK to mention things that can and should be fixed. But we ARE comparatively better than Europe, forever thru the ages, America hasn’t existed for ages, and I don’t know what you mean by forever. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > even in perspective of the full picture, not simply the “grass is greener” approach. Oh please. Our health care is far more costly than any other industrialized nations, for a dysfunctional and ultimately unsustainable system Republicans refuse to allow us to move away from in order to protect the stranglehold of those who profit greatly from the system, to the detriment of the patients who are suffering under its financial burden. Some exceptionalism that is; exceptionally evil. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/42 "2016-07-01T17:26:15Z")
**Derek** - I won’t put this delicately: have you ever been outside of the U.S. borders? Because your conception of other countries, in this and other threads, is totally cartoonish. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/43 "2016-07-01T17:41:31Z")
Michael Moore’s _Where to Invade Next_ should be watched by Americans who think Europe has no good ideas to offer. (Although, as the Europeans in the film often point out, some of their good ideas arose originally in the U.S. but were abandoned there as the U.S. has lost its way.) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/44 "2016-07-01T17:57:50Z")
This country was founded and grew, to a significant extent, on two holocausts: the virtual elimination of native Americans, and slavery and its aftermath. The horrible damage done to innocent human beings by these actions has never been fully acknowledged in our common view of ourselves, and as a result of that they remain a cancer on our psyche. There are indeed many good and even great things about this country. Our constitution is certainly a document which has stood the test of time in preserving our representative democracy and the liberties that go with it. But how can we be so very proud of that when we are still so much in denial about our origins and history? I don’t say that there aren’t plenty of people who acknowledge and regret these periods in our past\*, but they are hugely in the minority. Maybe not on this board, but in the general public. Where is our Truth and Reconciliation? Where is our Never Again? \*Not just in the past. It is my view that most of our current problems _vis-à-vis_ race can be easily traced back to slavery; the aftermath is still going on. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/45 "2016-07-01T17:59:17Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Is America perfect? No its not; and its OK to mention things that can and should be fixed. But we ARE comparatively better than Europe, forever thru the ages, even in perspective of the full picture, not simply the “grass is greener” approach. What are some things you would change about America? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/46 "2016-07-01T18:02:11Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > It is compared to America. The UK, Germany, and France are more inclusive of blacks into their cultures than America from my vantage point. It isn’t odd to see blacks and whites commingling organically in these countries as it STILL is in the US. In fact, openly-expressed racism and xenophobism in America, if anything, has had a strong resurgence in recent years. It doesn’t just exist, it is crawling out from beneath its hiding place into the light with increasing frequency and boldness. > … > What do you mean by if? They do have blacks in their countries. What percent of UK, Germany, and France are black? UK: 1.95%, Germany: .7%, and France, a whopping 3.5% WOW! The US is 13% black. The US is a much more diverse society than those countries and large-scale diversity does usually, in this world, bring group conflicts you know. Also, you’ve probably been to the cosmopolitan cities in Europe, how about the countryside? How many non-white leaders have any of those countries had? ZERO! Why do those countries have to “fight racism in sport,” whereas in the US, its a given that many of the football, basketball, and baseball stars are not white? Britain [has barely had](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_minority_politicians_in_the_United_Kingdom) non-whites in parliament, and its mostly been recently non-whites have been serving on a widespread basis, even proportionally, [compared to 'Merica.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_United_States_Representatives) Ditto the rest of that continent. > [@Ravenman](#): > > **Derek** - I won’t put this delicately: have you ever been outside of the U.S. borders? Because your conception of other countries, in this and other threads, is totally cartoonish. I’ve been to Europe several occasions, and Mexico too; beautiful places. That doesn’t take away from the fact that as a place to permanently live, and in terms of role in history, America is still better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/47 "2016-07-01T18:05:40Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > That doesn’t take away from the fact that as a place to permanently live, and in terms of role in history, America is still better. This is just silly. I’m sure it’s better for some, but others would prefer to live elsewhere. Recognizing that doesn’t diminish the USA at all. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/48 "2016-07-01T18:14:01Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > This country was founded and grew, to a significant extent, on two holocausts: the virtual elimination of native Americans, and slavery and its aftermath. The horrible damage done to innocent human beings by these actions has never been fully acknowledged in our common view of ourselves, and as a result of that they remain a cancer on our psyche. > > … > > I don’t say that there aren’t plenty of people who acknowledge and regret these periods in our past\*, but they are hugely in the minority. Maybe not on this board, but in the general public. Where is our Truth and Reconciliation? Where is our Never Again? > > \*Not just in the past. It is my view that most of our current problems _vis-à-vis_ race can be easily traced back to slavery; the aftermath is still going on. There is one Holocaust, the end. Hitler planned to and systematically and industrially exterminated the Jews, 2/3 of Europe’s and 1/3 of the world. His basis was conspiracy theories, not land largely under Jewish territorial control. And yes, intentionality matters. Even for “lebensraum,” he did not genocide those who controlled/inhabited territories he took over; in fact, he got the Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles, other Slavs, etc. to all help him build his death camps. American blacks were not exterminated, so no, black slavery is not comparable, unless you’re trying to downplay The Holocaust. Even with the aboriginals, they largely died of disease, and while yes there were things similar to pogroms against them, like Trail of Tears, it was not The Holocaust nor did a wholesale genocide happen to the aboriginals. What happened to them isn’t much different than how Russia expanded into Siberia. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/49 "2016-07-01T18:17:08Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There is one Holocaust, the end. Hitler planned to and systematically and industrially exterminated the Jews, 2/3 of Europe’s and 1/3 of the world. His basis was conspiracy theories, not land largely under Jewish territorial control. And yes, intentionality matters. Even for “lebensraum,” he did not genocide those who controlled/inhabited territories he took over; in fact, he got the Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles, other Slavs, etc. to all help him build his death camps. > > American blacks were not exterminated, so no, black slavery is not comparable, unless you’re trying to downplay The Holocaust. Even with the aboriginals, they largely died of disease, and while yes there were things similar to pogroms against them, like Trail of Tears, it was not The Holocaust nor did a wholesale genocide happen to the aboriginals. What happened to them isn’t much different than how Russia expanded into Siberia. It’s not a contest. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/50 "2016-07-01T18:20:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’ve been to Europe several occasions, and Mexico too; beautiful places. But you’ve never been a non-tourist anywhere? As in, experiencing the health care system, paying attention to the quality of local government, etc? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/51 "2016-07-01T18:21:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s not a contest. Tell that to Roderick Femm; he made the comparison first. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/52 "2016-07-01T18:23:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > But we ARE comparatively better than Europe, forever thru the ages, even in perspective of the full picture, not simply the “grass is greener” approach. See now, I like the U.S. - it is after all where I keep all my stuff. I’m not interested in living anywhere else. But the above attitude is just nonsense, even beyond lumping Europe into one homogeneous whole. There are definitely things certain countries are doing better at than the U.S., a reduced religiosity in many European countries these days not least among them IMHO. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > What happened to them isn’t much different than how Russia expanded into Siberia. Which I hope we can all agree was fucking awful. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/53 "2016-07-01T18:24:40Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Tell that to Roderick Femm; he made the comparison first. No, you did that. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/54 "2016-07-01T18:26:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > America is headed the way of the Roman Empire. Give it 30 years. Been hearing this for over 40 years now. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/55 "2016-07-01T18:27:02Z")
As a Canadian, I much prefer it here. Thank you for being a great friend and neighbour, but I’ll take gun control and universal health care over mass shootings and losing my life savings any day. I’m pretty sure our immigration policies are far better too, especially when it come to accepting refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/56 "2016-07-01T18:31:15Z")
I take exception to much of this! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/57 "2016-07-01T18:35:59Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Been hearing this for over 40 years now. The Roman Empire wasn’t destroyed in one day. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/58 "2016-07-01T18:51:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Tell that to Roderick Femm; he made the comparison first. [Holocaust](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/holocaust?s=t) 1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire. 2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering. 3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually preceded by _the_). 4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/59 "2016-07-01T18:53:50Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > But we ARE comparatively better than Europe, forever thru the ages, even in perspective of the full picture, not simply the “grass is greener” approach. Um, no offence mate but I live in “Europe” (France actually - we have separate cultures and stuff 😉 ) and I wouldn’t move to America for a big clock. You seem to have no earthly idea how fucked in the head your country even is, or at least seems to be to just about everyone abroad. From the attitude toward guns to healthcare to absurd wealth disparities and the general “fuck you, got mine” attitude to the dismal state of your workers’ rights & unions to the apparently deliberately dysfunctional government to the crumbling infrastructure to the creationists and assorted religious whackadoodles running amok to the for profit prisons, racially biased justice system and assorted antisocial policies… Big pile of NOPE. When most people think of “the greatest country on the planet” these days, the Scandinavian area tops just about every chart. This despite a weather you generally wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy’s dog. [QUOTE=Onomatopeia] It is compared to America. The UK, Germany, and France are more inclusive of blacks into their cultures than America from my vantage point. It isn’t odd to see blacks and whites commingling organically in these countries as it STILL is in the US. In fact, openly-expressed racism and xenophobism in America, if anything, has had a strong resurgence in recent years. It doesn’t just exist, it is crawling out from beneath its hiding place into the light with increasing frequency and boldness. [/QUOTE] Sorry to pull away the rose-tinted glasses, but France at least is a dismally xenophobic country. We just got \*very \*good at pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/60 "2016-07-01T19:12:13Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’ve been to Europe several occasions, and Mexico too; beautiful places. That doesn’t take away from the fact that as a place to permanently live, and in terms of role in history, America is still better. For certain definitions of “better”. :rolleyes: I’ve had chocolate and strawberry, and as an ice cream flavoring, vanilla is still better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853.md?page=4)