# American Exceptionalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853 "2016-07-01T05:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/81 "2016-07-02T02:41:20Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > excellent point. (you can hear the crickets chirping) Actually, in the 30s, Churchill called the Armenian genocide a “holocaust”, and according to [this link](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/the-word-holocaust-history-and-meaning_n_1229043.html), the word was used as early as the 18th century to describe mass killings. It doesn’t diminish the Shoah to use the word “holocaust” to describe large scale atrocities like American slavery and the abominable treatment of Native Americans. Many of my relatives (German Jews) were killed in the Shoah, and my grandmother barely escaped. I find nothing wrong with using lower-case “holocaust” to describe some of the worst atrocities in human history aside from the Shoah. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/82 "2016-07-02T03:35:13Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > excellent point. (you can hear the crickets chirping) Nonsense. It was not a point, but a question. And the answer is yes. It’s not a new word, and it was not coined to refer exclusively to the Shoah. It’s Middle English, from Old French via Late Latin from Greek. It’s kinda been around a while. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/83 "2016-07-02T03:50:38Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I made no comparison. I used the lower case “h” on “holocaust” on purpose to indicate that these were two of many that have happened in the world’s history (and future probably and sadly). > > Otherwise your sentiments pretty much make my point. What happened in the United States to native Americans and slaves and their descendants wasn’t so bad, according to you, that we have anything to feel guilty or ashamed about; and other countries did it too. Am I expressing your sentiments accurately? Please correct me about your actual views if I am wrong. Conquest was part of human nature since humans were a species. In the past it was physical displacement now it’s ideas. But there will always be competition and displacement. I agree with Derek on the premise though. America, fuck yeah!🇺🇸 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/84 "2016-07-02T03:53:45Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Historically, underneath it all,\* genocide _and_ weird dumb luck \*made the difference. And the USA is plutocratic, not democratic. > > Do you want to tell us we need genocide and plutocracy? No? Me neither. But if you’re going to make an argument that America was made great by our ancestor’s practices, then don’t be surprised that conservatives want ethnic cleansing, large families to outbreed the hated Others, and a plutocratic class system. > > Seriously, give it up. So why didn’t every other little tribe in the world who had more spears and clubs than their neighbors they conquered not hit #1 on the leaderboard? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/85 "2016-07-02T04:15:56Z")
You’ve heard of that little British bunch one assumes? They made a pretty good show on the ‘leaderboard’ for a good long run, as I recall. Or perhaps those Roman chaps, remember them? Seems to me they were right up there too. But sooner than they thought, they looked up one day and it was decline on all sides. The sun set and their time passed. It can hapoen, perhaps even MUST happen, to every tribe that makes it to the top of the leaderboard! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/86 "2016-07-02T06:13:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > {…} The biggest problem with the myth of American exceptionalism is that it’s essentially a device used – usually by conservatives – to justify policies that have no rational justification. {…} The first thing this thread needed to do, if it’s to accomplish anything, was to determine if we’re discussing; “American ‘exceptionalism’” (i.e. America, fuck yeah!) or “American Exceptionalism” (i.e. America, fuck y’all!) . . . and those are two _very different_ things. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/87 "2016-07-02T07:18:08Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It can hapoen, perhaps even MUST happen, to every tribe that makes it to the top of the leaderboard! There are no 'cheevos for doing that, though. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/88 "2016-07-02T07:24:03Z")
I’m in general agreement that the U.S. is exceptional — much as the British Empire was exceptional the century before (and even earlier the Dutch and other peoples enjoyed exceptionality). Despite some contrary evidence, I’m still naive enough to accept that the U.S. often uses its military power altruistically. But count me out if supporting the U.S. exceptionalness means I have to accept the falsehoods promulgated by the jingoists in this thread. _“American annihilation of the Native Americans doesn’t count because holocaust isn’t capitalized”_ ? Hunh? Of course Americans couldn’t kill as many Indians as Hitler did Jews — smallpox alone had reduced their numbers well below 6 million. Scholars differ only over whether the inhumanities should be called “genocide” or “attempted genocide.” - Colonists were paid for each Penobscot Native they killed – fifty pounds for adult male scalps, twenty-five for adult female scalps, and twenty for scalps of boys and girls under age twelve. - British general Jeffrey Amherst deliberately dispensed smallpox-infected items to rebellious Indians in western Pennsylvania in 1763. - George Washington called for “the total destruction and devastation of [Iroquois] settlements.” - 1782 a Pennsylvania militia surprised a group of about one hundred Christian Indians at Gnadenhütten in eastern Ohio. In a chilling example of what sociologist Michael Mann has termed the “dark side of democracy,” the militiamen voted on whether or not to kill their captives. When the majority vote was tallied, the militiamen proceeded to slaughter men, women, and children alike. I stopped these sad examples before getting to the Trail of Tears, massacres during the California Gold Rush, and the Indian Wars. And these weren’t “undeserving savages.” The Legal Code of the Iroquois Confederacy would probably be an improvement over the misshapen system America has today. Most spectacularly foolish was > [@adaher](#): > > Truly nothing useful has come from our greatest minds since the 18th century on the subject of how we govern ourselves. Giving women the vote wasn’t useful? Freeing the slaves wasn’t useful? Uh, what’s that again? > [@adaher](#): > > What we do well is make sure that the people who live here are guaranteed certain inalienable rights. And we created a government that makes it hard to infringe on those rights, or do anything in particular without wide consent of the governed. Well, give this man a lollipop! He babbled a whole paragraph about inalienable rights without mentioning the most important and most inalienable right of all … _ **Guns!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/89 "2016-07-02T07:59:15Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > And furthermore, when asking about so-called American Exceptionalism, the last opinion that matters is that of an American. It’s like asking a guy if he thinks that he’s handsome. He probably thinks he ain’t that bad. Nevermind what he thinks, what does someone else think? As I posted at the beginning of the thread, Elon Musk (originally from South Africa) is a huge believer in American Exceptionalism. He has said he thinks America has been the greatest force for good in the history of the world. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Also, having two enormous oceans for protection – although some credit goes to the wisdom of the early leadership in emphasizing naval power. > > Geography is destiny…but the U.S. has also played the cards very, very well. Exceptionally well, would you say? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/90 "2016-07-02T08:38:02Z")
The U.S. has a lot of work to do on itself. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/91 "2016-07-02T08:43:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Giving women the vote wasn’t useful? Freeing the slaves wasn’t useful? Uh, what’s that again? That’s just a logical extension of that 18th century philosophy. Since then, it’s been basically Marx and Nietsche and other garbage. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/92 "2016-07-02T09:25:05Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The first thing this thread needed to do, if it’s to accomplish anything, was to determine if we’re discussing; > > “American ‘exceptionalism’” (i.e. America, fuck yeah!) > or > “American Exceptionalism” (i.e. America, fuck y’all!) > > . . . and those are two _very different_ things. Well, I don’t think anyone has suggested the second one, and if you’re going to go with the first, the support for it so far comes from two sources: (1) the OP, who regurgitates the aforementioned unthinking, uncritical jingoism, and (2) the recent previous poster who improved on the brevity of the OP and informed us of the salient facts in three words of unsurpassed eloquence: “America, fuck yeah!” It’s certainly briefer than the OP’s multi-sentence jingoism, and expresses exactly the kind of sound reasoning and well-developed logic often found on the bumper stickers favored by rednecks in rural backwoods to grace the backs of their pickup trucks. It’s almost like one of those bumper stickers came to life and developed an ability to post itself on the Internet. You can’t argue with that sort of thing, you really can’t. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I posted at the beginning of the thread, Elon Musk (originally from South Africa) is a huge believer in American Exceptionalism. He has said he thinks America has been the greatest force for good in the history of the world. Yes, and? Having read Musk’s bio (the authorized one by Ashlee Vance) it appears to me that Musk is a strange mix of obsessively driven entrepreneur, visionary, and complete asshole with absolutely zero empathy for his employees and most other human beings. Every asshole who has won the lottery of American capitalism thinks it’s great, just like any lottery winner. That’s no surprise but why is it relevant? What about the other 99.9% of the population? What about those who can’t even afford health care or decent housing for themselves or their children – in the richest country in the world, and the one with the worst wealth disparity among developed nations? Where the lower economic echelons not only can’t own a Tesla, they can’t even get decent health care or even get justice in the courts. Does Elon Musk give a shit about them? Probably about as much as the Koch brothers do. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/93 "2016-07-02T09:49:09Z")
So what? None of that, even if your analysis of Musk is correct, has anything to do with the fact that he, a foreign-born observer, has come to hold the same view regarding America’s exceptionalism as many of us here in the U.S. do. The fact that he may not be as empathetic as you’d like in regard to his employees or whatever is completely beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/94 "2016-07-02T10:10:07Z")
The USA is exceptional for one thing alone. The Constitution. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ain’t such a bad goal. Would that the whole planet adopted it and abode by it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/95 "2016-07-02T10:48:31Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The USA is exceptional for one thing alone. The Constitution. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ain’t such a bad goal. Would that the whole planet adopted it and abode by it. Regarding Happiness: The U.N. in concert with the Gallup World Poll and various experts [publishes a World Happiness Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report). The U.S. ranks 13th, slightly ahead of Costa Rica. Very good but not exactly “exceptional.” The happiness is broken down into six contribuants. U.S. ranks 9th in per capita GDP, 26th in social support, 33rd in healthy life expectancy, 41st(!) in freedom to make life choices, 20th in generosity, 51st in trust (publicly perceived absence of corruption). ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/96 "2016-07-02T10:49:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > America is headed the way of the Roman Empire. Give it 30 years. That is word for word what I heard 30 years ago. Really. And it ain’t happened yet. Overall, I’m pretty pro-American. You get a lot of anti-American American cranks over here, and they just naturally assume all the other Americans they see here are fellow travelers. They’re always shocked to find out I think they’re complete doofuses. We’re even moving back to America soon, now that the wife is retired. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/97 "2016-07-02T10:51:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Pretty grim assessment, yet it’s hard to disagree with because it’s true. Of course it has to be balanced against America’s considerable strengths Well, yes. And truth be told, of course I could rattle off just as many harsh truths about France, its current self and its history ; even though I really like living here and don’t contemplate moving abroad at all. The salient difference being, _I_ don’t go around telling everyone within earshot that my country is and has always been the absolute best at countrying, ever ! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/98 "2016-07-02T11:07:59Z")
[Here’s an article](http://www.businessinsider.de/19-countries-with-the-highest-standard-of-life-according-to-the-social-progress-report-2016-6?op=1) on a recent study comparing standard of life across different countries. The article discusses the first nineteen of them; after all, they had to get far enough to get the US in. Most of western Europe, as well as New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, place before the US. This is, in fact, a consistent finding across similar such projects. The US places 16th on the [Where-to-be-born Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index), tenth on the [Quality of Life Index](http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp), 23rd on the[Satisfaction with Life Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index), 105th on the [Happy Planet Index](http://www.happyplanetindex.org/data/) (which takes the ecological footprint into account), and 13th on the [World Happiness Report](http://worldhappiness.report/). So, all in all, US performance across these indices is, at best, OK-to-middling among developed countries of comparable GDP per capita, and falls certainly short of the claims of exceptionalists, especially if you take the economic cost of sustaining its lifestyle into account. If you want to maximize your chances of happiness and life satisfaction, there are several better options; even more so if you want to keep your economic impact at a minimum while doing so. > [@adaher](#): > > It’s not about the people, it’s about the system and the culture. We have a system that is better for preserving individual liberties than any other system, and we have a culture that is more welcoming to immigration than any other. The US is 13th on the ‘Opportunity’ category of the [Social Progress Index](http://www.socialprogressimperative.org/countries/usa/), with ‘Personal Rights’, ‘Personal Freedom and Choice’, and ‘Tolerance for Immigrants’ being explicitly marked as categories where the US has a relative weakness as compared to other countries of similar GDP per capita. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/99 "2016-07-02T13:30:24Z")
When Europe was in tatters and Russia stood there cold and shivering like a 15-year-old Berlinese girl hiding from the Soviet invaders what did we do? We let everyone go their own ways and rebuild. Exceptional. A act of unprecedented moral restraint. It’s shameful and sad to see how liberals hate their own country. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853/100 "2016-07-02T13:39:00Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > When Europe was in tatters and Russia stood there cold and shivering like a 15-year-old Berlinese girl hiding from the Soviet invaders what did we do? > > We let everyone go their own ways and rebuild. > > Exceptional. A act of unprecedented moral restraint. > > It’s shameful and sad to see how liberals hate their own country. Who hates their own country? I don’t hate my country, and neither do all the many liberal sailors and officers (and non-liberals) I served with in the Navy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-exceptionalism/758853.md?page=6)