# American Express Problem...Will they cancel me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491 "2007-09-08T20:21:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/21 "2007-09-10T20:07:25Z")
Yeah, but he’ll lose 150,000 points. That’s a lot of damn points. For instance, 5K points gets you a 50 dollar Home Depot gift card, or you can spend 10,000 points and get a $50 amex gift card. So he’s looking to lose about $750 in amex cash, or $1500 in home depot (or other vendor) gift cards. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/22 "2007-09-10T20:49:18Z")
Could he get the gift cards now, prior to cancelling the card? ---
**Author:** ![SoulSearching](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@SoulSearching](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulSearching)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/23 "2007-09-10T20:55:25Z")
Its actually close to 200k points now. Account is suspended until review is finished and likely to cancellation. Need I mention 95% of the points accumulated outside of the 3 months when these “infractions” took place? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/24 "2007-09-10T20:59:41Z")
Yeah, I hate to say it, but after they see their enormous outstanding liability in terms of points, they might be looking for any excuse to cut the card. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/25 "2007-09-10T22:14:14Z")
[QUOTE=SoulSearching] But if they are willing to lose a potentially lifelong customer with perfect payment history and credit score then someone recommend me a good Visa with a good rewards/skymiles program. [/QUOTE] Well, it looks like you clearly but unknowingly violated their policy, showed appropriate contrition, and now just have to accept whatever they decide. But I recommend the Visa Signature card (I have one with Bank of America). If you have an AmEx platinum then you might qualify for it. And no more funny money transactions! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/26 "2007-09-11T12:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=SoulSearching] Keep in mind that I lose 2% on the acquired funds when using paypal and I assumed Amex was making their 3% merchant fee so it was just like any other purchase. program. [/QUOTE] I still don’t get it. You put $102 into one PayPal account, and took $100 out of the other PayPal account. That leaves $2 for Paypal and Amex to share. Where would Amex’s $3 have come from? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/27 "2007-09-11T15:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] I still don’t get it. You put $102 into one PayPal account, and took $100 out of the other PayPal account. That leaves $2 for Paypal and Amex to share. Where would Amex’s $3 have come from? [/QUOTE] The bellboy has it! S’searcing: Your scheme may make sense if Amex points are worth more than the two percent that PayPal is charging you. Is that the case? As for the overall shenanigans, It may be the case that Amex doesn’t much care about the point manipulations – as far as they’re concerned, it’s entirely possible that you thought you found a way to get around the high APR for cash advances and are using the points reasoning as an excuse to cover that. (Please know I’m not accusing you of this, but just suggesting it’s reasonable to suspect Amex’s fraud department to think that way.) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/28 "2007-09-11T18:48:36Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] I still don’t get it. You put $102 into one PayPal account, and took $100 out of the other PayPal account. That leaves $2 for Paypal and Amex to share. Where would Amex’s $3 have come from? [/QUOTE] They would get it from paypal (the merchant). ---
**Author:** ![qubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f07891/32.png) [@qubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qubed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/29 "2007-09-11T18:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=Rhythmdvl] S’searcing: Your scheme may make sense if Amex points are worth more than the two percent that PayPal is charging you. Is that the case? [/QUOTE] I don’t think that’s the case, and I think the OP knows that. But he wants to hit a milestone in points quickly for some big reward, and he’s willing to suffer that 2% for a few extra points at the moment. This isn’t a forever thing, just temporary thing. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/30 "2007-09-11T18:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=Joey P] They would get it from paypal (the merchant). [/QUOTE] So paypal’s losing 1% per transaction? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/31 "2007-09-11T19:56:56Z")
By the way, I think AMEX has a procedure to let you just BUY points. Wouldn’t that be easier? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/32 "2007-09-11T20:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] It _is_ fraud, despite your protestation to the contrary. [/QUOTE] It appears to be a violation of the cardholder agreement. Do you have any evidence that it constitutes fraud in a legal sense? If it did, wouldn’t AmEx call the police? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/33 "2007-09-11T23:20:30Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] So paypal’s losing 1% per transaction? I think not. [/QUOTE] I suspect that PayPal might have worked out favorable terms with credit card companies to make themselves profitable at a 2% commision. Additionally, I believe they make most of their revenue on loaning out cash in their accounts, like a bank. But on fast-turnover accounts I doubt that would make up for the cost of a 1% loss with every transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/34 "2007-09-11T23:40:37Z")
[QUOTE=SoulSearching] I explained my ignorance to such terms of the agreement (who reads that fine print crap anyway?) [/quote] Wait-do you honestly think this is a valid defense? :eek: "Ignorance of the law ", and all. :dubious: Honestly, it sounds like a total scam. How many “points” do you get, and how much were they worth, anyways? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/35 "2007-09-11T23:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Wait-do you honestly think this is a valid defense? :eek: "Ignorance of the law ", and all. :dubious: Honestly, it sounds like a total scam. How many “points” do you get, and how much were they worth, anyways? [/QUOTE] (Goddamn editing time limit!) Even if I didn’t read the agreement, it sounds like something that would obviously be a violation. Did you honestly think they wouldn’t call you on it? I would imagine that plenty of people have tried it before and gotten caught. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/36 "2007-09-12T01:31:12Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Did you really think Amex would find your blatant attempt to skirt the limits of their points system to be acceptable? It _is_ fraud, despite your protestation to the contrary. Whether or not they will cancel your account is answerable by no one but the people reviewing your account, but they are clearly well within their right to do so. [/QUOTE] Mhendo is right. It may be a breach of the agreement. I don’t see the fraud. Please explain how this would be fraud. Here are the elements of fraud. ELEMENTS: 1. False representation of a 2. Material fact 3. Made intentionally and knowingly 4. With intent to mislead 5. Reliance by the party misled 6. Resulting damage Fraud rather clearly does not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/37 "2007-09-12T03:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=Caffeine.addict] Mhendo is right. It may be a breach of the agreement. I don’t see the fraud. Please explain how this would be fraud. Here are the elements of fraud. ELEMENTS: 1. False representation of a 2. Material fact 3. Made intentionally and knowingly 4. With intent to mislead 5. Reliance by the party misled 6. Resulting damage Fraud rather clearly does not apply. [/QUOTE] 1. I’m not really 2. buying something that I’m appearing to buy. 3. I know I’m not buying anything, 4. but you don’t. 5. You still send the funds requested 6. and I don’t pay your cash-advance fee. Looks like it meets these six elements to me. The reward points seem to cloud the issue. Assuming that the OP is being honest on the SDMB, he made fraudulent purchases to his PayPal account in order to accumulate points. He also accumulated cash. Remember, AMEX is not a credit card. It is a charge card. You’re not supposed to carry a revolving balance. So, assume the OP has a zero balance at the beginning of this exercise. Assume also that the annual membership fee has long since been paid. So, the OP uses AMEX to send his PayPal account $100. Now he owes AMEX a hundred bucks. He withdraws the $100 bucks and pays AMEX. This seems fraudulent to me. Suppose I have a credit card (not a charge card like AMEX). I already have a $1000 balance. The minimum payment due this month is $25. I’m short this month and don’t have the money. So, using my credit card, I send $25 to my PayPal account. Now my credit balance is $1025. The $25 “purchase” is in the thirty-day interest-free window. I withdraw the $25 from PayPal and pay the credit card’s minimum payment. Now my balance is back to $1000, I have made my minimum payment, and my credit history is perfect. I have borrowed the $1000 from the credit card largely interest-free. (Yes, the $1000 will accumulate another month’s interest, but I don’t care. I’m not really paying it anyway.) What a deal. Does the OP think that the banks haven’t thought of this??? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/38 "2007-09-12T03:51:41Z")
[QUOTE=Drum God] 1. I’m not really 2. buying something that I’m appearing to buy. 3. I know I’m not buying anything, 4. but you don’t. 5. You still send the funds requested 6. and I don’t pay your cash-advance fee. Looks like it meets these six elements to me. [/QUOTE] Where did the OP claim to be buying something? What false representation did he make? He transferred funds between two PayPal accounts. He didn’t attempt to hide it. He never claimed to be buying something that he wasn’t buying. And when Amex called him on it, he readily admitted that he had done exactly what his transaction records showed he had done. He broke the rules of the cardholder agreement. You’re still a long way from establishing fraud in any legal, criminal sense. ---
**Author:** ![Fireclown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Fireclown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fireclown)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/39 "2007-09-12T03:58:33Z")
I used to work for Amex. What you did is something Amex calls “Factoring”. And yes they will cancel your account. ---
**Author:** ![SoulSearching](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@SoulSearching](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulSearching)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491/40 "2007-09-12T05:44:06Z")
As I have stated many times, my intentions were simple and truthfully stated. The funny thing is, AMEX only caught on after so many times because the sending AND receiving e-mail payal accounts essentially contained my name in it (according to the AMEX on the phone dohhhh). If I “knew” what was I doing and how wrong it was and had something to hide, even fraudalent intents, you’d think I’d simply have my receiving paypal account email address to be something along the lines of ABC\_Textiles Inc instead of First Initial\_Last Name@yahoo I’ve definitely learned something from this experience and simply wanted to seek advice and or speculation on what typically occurs with AMEX in terms of possibly salvaging my account. The accusations of my intent are not necessary. I suppose Fireclown provided a reasonable answer to the original question. As far as I’m concerned, my actions were about as illegal as counting cards in a casino at blackjack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-express-problem-will-they-cancel-me/418491.md?page=3)