# American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723 "2005-02-12T08:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/1 "2005-02-12T08:09:05Z")
I know fascism is a loaded word. No, I don’t think the US is quite there yet, but I’m more concerned with the general populace’s _mindset_ that _precedes_ the rise of fascism, rather than any direct comparisons to previous leaders/models (eg, Hitler/Germany, Mussolini/Italy). In that category, the US mindset is, I believe, verging on too close for comfort. Here are excerpts from a recent article in [The American Conservative](http://www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html) magazine by Scott McConnell: > [@](#): > > **Hunger for Dictatorship > War to export democracy may wreck our own.** > > Justin Raimondo, editor of the popular [Antiwar.com](http://Antiwar.com) website, wrote a column headlined, **“Today’s Conservatives are Fascists.”** Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists, widespread support for a militaristic foreign policy, and a retrospective backing of Japanese internment during World War II, Raimondo raised the prospect of “fascism with a democratic face.” > > His fellow libertarian, Mises Institute president Lew Rockwell, wrote a year-end piece called **“The Reality of Red State Fascism,”** which claimed that “the most significant socio-political shift in our time has gone almost completely unremarked, and even unnoticed. **It is the dramatic shift of the red-state bourgeoisie from leave-us-alone libertarianism, manifested in the Congressional elections of 1994, to almost totalitarian statist nationalism.** Whereas the conservative middle class once cheered the circumscribing of the federal government, it now celebrates power and adores the central state, particularly its military wing.” > > When USA Today founder Al Neuharth wrote a column suggesting that American troops be brought home sooner rather than later, he was blown away by letters comparing him to Tokyo Rose and demanding that he be tried as a traitor. That mood, Rockwell notes, dwarfs anything that existed during the Cold War. **“It celebrates the shedding of blood, and exhibits a maniacal love of the state.** The new ideology of the red-state bourgeoisie seems to actually believe that the US is God marching on earth—not just godlike, but really serving as a proxy for God himself.” > > **I don’t think there are yet real fascists in the administration, but there is certainly now a constituency for them —hungry to bomb foreigners and smash those Americans who might object. And when there are constituencies, leaders may not be far behind. They could be propelled into power by a populace ever more frustrated that the imperialist war it has supported—generally for the most banal of patriotic reasons—cannot possibly end in victory. And so scapegoats are sought, and if we can’t bomb Arabs into submission, or the French, domestic critics of Bush will serve.** > > The invasion of Iraq has put the possibility of the end to American democracy on the table and has empowered groups on the Right that would acquiesce to and in some cases welcome the suppression of core American freedoms. That would be the titanic irony of course, the mother of them all—that a war initiated under the pretense of spreading democracy would lead to its destruction in one of its very birthplaces. My emphasis. The debate is how pertinant this fear is, and at what point rational citizens should be alarmed, particularly those who can be identified as Left-leaning, since they are the likely targets. As I’ve said, we’re not quite there yet, but at what point is it too late to stop it? What is the breaking point for rational citizens? Is it really headed in this direction, or is it a partisan alarmist viewpoint? Should the Left be worried? Ambassador Joe Wilson emailed a left-leaning blog this week, in response to the Jeff Gannon/Talon News story (he’d been interviewed by Gannon, and Gannon is alleged to have received classified info on the Plame outing). He called the current admin. fascist, and offered [this cite](http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm) as a (partial) explanation: > [@](#): > > **What is Fascism?** > > This may surprise most educated people. > > 1. Fascism is commonly defined as an open terror-based dictatorship which is: > > **Reactionary:** makes policy based upon current circumstances rather than creating policies to prevent problems; piles lies and misnomers on top of more lies until the truth becomes indistinguishable, revised or forgotten. > > **Chauvinistic:** Two or more tiered legal systems, varying rights based upon superficial characteristics such as race, creed and origin. > > **Imperialist elements of finance capital:** Extending a nation’s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political domination of one state over its allies. > > Though a dictatorship is the most common association with fascism, a democracy or republic can also be fascist when it strays away from its Tenets of sovereignty. In the 20th Century, many Fascist countries started out as republics. **Through the use of fear, societies gave up their rights under the guise of security.** Ultimately these republics morphed into Fascist states. > > Fascism is an extreme measure taken by the middle classes to forestall lower-working class revolution; it thrives on the weakness of the middle classes. It accomplishes this by embracing the middle-class’ love of the status-quo, its complacency and its fears of: > > a. Generating a united struggle within the working class > > b. Revolution > > c. Losing its own power and position within society > > In a more simplistic term the people currently in control fear that if they allow equal rights and equal consideration to those being oppressed, they will become oppressed and lose everything. Read the rest of it at the cite… Perhaps more of you are familiar with this: > [@](#): > > **The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism** > > 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism > 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights > 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause > 4. Supremacy of the Military > 5. Rampant Sexism > 6. Controlled Mass Media > 7. Obsession with National Security > 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined > 9. Corporate Power is Protected > 10. Labor Power is Suppressed > 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts > 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment > 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption > 14. Fraudulent Elections Is there anything on this list the US is not guilty of, to some degree or another? Well, that’s my worst-case-scenario mindset at work. Confirm, debunk, strategise, commiserate, ridicule with drive-bys, whatever… ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/2 "2005-02-12T08:13:54Z")
Sorry, but the title of the thread was cut off, and I didn’t realise it. The full title should be: **American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried about Losing in Iraq** I wonder if a mod could fix it, or at least cut it off right after _Worried_, so it makes more sense. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/3 "2005-02-12T13:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder if a mod could fix it Best way to fix it would be to change the title to “Hysterical raving from the far left, or Why Hiding Under the Bed and Crying is the Best Way to React When You Lose an Election”. > [@](#): > > The debate is how pertinant this fear is, and at what point rational citizens should be alarmed, particularly those who can be identified as Left-leaning, since they are the likely targets. If you want it to make sense, you can’t use mutually contradictory terms in the same sentence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/4 "2005-02-12T13:45:46Z")
The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Communism 1. Powerful and Continuing Internationalism 2. Crippling of Criminal Justice & National Security of Western Capitalist Societies under the Guise of Defending Human Rights 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause 4. Denigration of the Military in Western Capitalist Societies (WCS) 5. Rampant Unisexism 6. Controlled Mass Media 7. Obsession with Undermining National Security of WCS 8. Religion is Isolated & Marginalized by Government 9. State-Allied Corporate Power is Protected 10. Labor Power is Championed in Theory until it leans to Supporting WCS 11. Trumpeting Intellectuals and the Arts above Religion and Morality 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment in Pursuit of Characteristic 2. 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption 14. Fraudulent Elections :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/5 "2005-02-12T13:54:01Z")
I am sure we are all deeply impressed and grateful for the depth and clarity of friend **Shodan’s** response. A nitpick: perhaps, for the sake of brevity, a single “neener!” would have sufficed. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/6 "2005-02-12T14:08:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Best way to fix it would be to change the title to “Hysterical raving from the far left, or Why Hiding Under the Bed and Crying is the Best Way to React When You Lose an Election”. If you want it to make sense, you can’t use mutually contradictory terms in the same sentence. > > Regards, > Shodan WTF? Did someone change the forum name to Great Snide Innuendos while I wasn’t looking? After the inquiry about the actual definition and standards of fascism as a political movement over in GQ, I expected a thread of this sort – and that it would be a classic Left/Right mudslinging match. Before it gets too down-and-dirty, though, may I suggest that it might be worthwhile for the Right to take a good look at the actual pre-fascist / pre-Nazi / pre-Franco circumstances and issues of the relevant countries, note honestly the occasional parallel as well as the differences, and contemplate how best to deal with them – much as 1940s and 1950s little-d democratic Leftists needed to look at the influence of Communists that, while limited, actually was there. Behind the sarcasm about Bush as Fuehrer lies the quite real assertion that it has somehow become unpatriotic to criticize the President or his actions, in the minds of many strong Bush-supporters. (Which means we _need_ men like **Bricker** and **Mr Moto** , who are Republicans and Bush supporters who are unafraid to say from time to time that they oppose (or at least don’t support) some aspect of his policies.) There is a quite real undercurrent that I’ve seen twice before, once as a small child and once in my later teens: the McCarthy period and the reaction to the Vietnam War protests. And the attitude espoused, that being a good citizen necessarily mandates agreeing with my leader’s political stances, is one that was distasteful then and is more so now. I don’t like Mr. Bush and the vast majority of his policies. But I’m prepared to give him credit for doing something right on the rare occasions that I think he has. And, like it or not, he’s won two elections, albeit with some controversy over the total legitimacy of all his votes. I think I have a right to say that – just as my opponents have a right to pillory me for having views they consider wrong-headed. Woe betide us if it suddenly becomes wrong to criticize the President. Those of you with a fondness for history might note that we’ve had serious debates on this board in the last month or two which could be paraphrased, preserving the basic content, and sent back in time to 1800 to argue for and against the Alien and Sedition Acts. Or to 1931 Germany or 1921 Italy. And that last, frankly, scares me. No, I don’t think Mr. Bush is grounds to break Godwin’s Law. But he does have a very strong sense of the moral rightness of what he does that in his view gives him the right to allow the misleading of the public towards an end good in his view, and that of his supporters. That’s unnerving. More so is the underlying attitude, which could be easily coopted by someone without Mr. Bush’s apparent commitment to the Republic (as opposed to the Republicans) to invoke Sinclair Lewis’s scenario. Those of you who **rjung** might address as “Pubbies” and “Bushistas” – do me the honor of thinking that through carefully, and taking the time to grasp where the Left is seeing Gestapo hiding under the bed. And then decide whether you may in fact have some dirty laundry on your side of the fence that requires laundering. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/7 "2005-02-12T14:15:27Z")
Actually, I think this paragraph may be the key: His fellow libertarian, Mises Institute president Lew Rockwell, wrote a year-end piece called “The Reality of Red State Fascism,” which claimed that “the most significant socio-political shift in our time has gone almost completely unremarked, and even unnoticed. **It is the dramatic shift of the red-state bourgeoisie from leave-us-alone libertarianism, manifested in the Congressional elections of 1994, to almost totalitarian statist nationalism.** Whereas the conservative middle class once cheered the circumscribing of the federal government, it now celebrates power and adores the central state, particularly its military wing.” Rockwell is correct in that the red-state citizens basically wanted to be left alone. Unfortunately for the left, their continuous activism was perceived as an active effort to minimalize red-state values. This forced the “red-staters” into a more active role politically than they would normally assume. In a perverse way, it’s entirely possible that the left is indirectly responsible for this shift. There were some gains made, slowly, and this encouraged more activity on the left, and instead of a very gradual push for change, the push became more aggressive and less subtle. Had the changes been slower, the red states may have been more tolerant, or at least less likely to become politically active; think “frog in a boiling pot.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/8 "2005-02-12T15:05:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > WTF? Did someone change the forum name to Great Snide Innuendos while I wasn’t looking? Anyone who posts this, and then quotes **rjung** approvingly, doesn’t require any refutation. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Behind the sarcasm about **Bush as Fuehrer** lies the quite real assertion that it has somehow become unpatriotic to criticize the President or his actions, in the minds of many strong Bush-supporters. > > …No, I don’t think Mr. Bush is grounds to break Godwin’s Law. Which is exactly why the OP doesn’t require refutation. First compare Bush with Hitler, and then try to pretend you are above the fray. Bullshit. Look, **Poly** , you have been charging around the SDMB accusing Bush-supporters of lying, stealing, and dishonesty for refusing to condemn his policies on Social Security out of hand. And for objecting when people like **RTFirefly** lie - simply, straightforwardly lie - about what Bush said and believes. So spare me the hypocritical horseshit about how much Republicans have to look at their own dirty laundry. Social Security in its present form of “pay as you go” has been going on since 1968, and the only one you want to blame it on is Bush, because he wants to fix the problem in some way other than the usual “raise taxes as a first and only resort”. There’s a big fucking beam in your eye. Pull it out and we can talk. Until then, the usual leftist spew as characterized in the OP is worth nothing. If you didn’t object to the cronyism, corruption, and general slime of the Clinton administration, don’t bother me with this sanctimonious slop about how the Republic is tottering every time some liberal loser gets kicked to the curb. If there was ever a demonstration of the truth behind Godwin, it’s this. The OP compared Bush with Hitler. Nothing and nobody that follows is going to be worth wasting electrons over. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AlbertHosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AlbertHosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlbertHosteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/9 "2005-02-12T15:14:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there was ever a demonstration of the truth behind Godwin, it’s this. \*\* The OP compared Bush with Hitler. \*\*Nothing and nobody that follows is going to be worth wasting electrons over. No she didn’t. > [@](#): > > I know fascism is a loaded word. No, I don’t think the US is quite there yet, but **I’m more concerned with the general populace’s mindset that precedes the rise of fascism, rather than any direct comparisons to previous leaders/models (eg, Hitler/Germany, Mussolini/Italy).** In that category, the US mindset is, I believe, verging on too close for comfort. (Emphasis mine in both quotes). The OP specifically _un_invited comparisons to fascist leaders. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/10 "2005-02-12T15:21:47Z")
[MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) compared Bush to Hitler, while criticizing Bush (Praise the Leader!) Friend **Anna** has, on numerous occaisions, criticized The Leader. Therefore, it necessarily follows, that **Anna** has compared Bush to Hitler. It’s all pretty simple, really, once you know how their minds work. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/11 "2005-02-12T16:50:21Z")
If I enjoyed reading _ad hominem_s I’d hang out at MoveOn or with the Freepers. I expect better, even in the **Pit** –and this is not the **Pit**. I would ask everyone to _debate_ the OP (or any side issues) and leave the personal innuendo out of this. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/12 "2005-02-12T17:06:46Z")
Just a note in that the OP’s point has also been made by Ayn-Rand-heir Leonard Peikoff’s THE OMINOUS PARALLELS, which attacks standard US Conservatism & Liberalism alike. Interestingly, Peikoff & the Ayn Rand Institute he directs both fiercely support the Iraq war, the War on Terror & the State of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/13 "2005-02-12T17:12:56Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism > > 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism > 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights > 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause > 4. Supremacy of the Military > 5. Rampant Sexism > 6. Controlled Mass Media > 7. Obsession with National Security > 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined > 9. Corporate Power is Protected > 10. Labor Power is Suppressed > 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts > 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment > 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption > 14. Fraudulent Elections > [@FriarTed](#): > > The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Communism > > 1. Powerful and Continuing Internationalism > 2. Crippling of Criminal Justice & National Security of Western Capitalist > Societies under the Guise of Defending Human Rights > 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause > 4. Denigration of the Military in Western Capitalist Societies (WCS) > 5. Rampant Unisexism > 6. Controlled Mass Media > 7. Obsession with Undermining National Security of WCS > 8. Religion is Isolated & Marginalized by Government > 9. State-Allied Corporate Power is Protected > 10. Labor Power is Championed in Theory until it leans to Supporting WCS > 11. Trumpeting Intellectuals and the Arts above Religion and Morality > 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment in Pursuit of Characteristic 2. > 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption > 14. Fraudulent Elections > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Well, if you put it **that** way, Communism obviously is preferable! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/14 "2005-02-12T17:16:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, if you put it **that** way, Communism obviously is preferable! 🙂 _takes a bow!_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/15 "2005-02-12T17:31:40Z")
Anyone interested in this stuff should check out David Neiwert’s blog, especially his “Rise of Pseudo-Fascism” series of posts. If only to be reassured that his more worrisome predictions have _not_ yet come to pass. David Neiwert made many of the same observations as in the links in the OP, and suggested that things might get worse after a Bush election victory last November. However, it seems to me that some things have gotten somewhat better since then instead. The “dissent is treason” meme, for example, seems to have been moved to the back burner, the Democrats are showing signs of actually being a voice of opposition for a change, and the GOP’s recent fondness for gerrymandering may be receiving a critical examination from within the party, thanks to Schwarzenegger. (We can only hope.) All of which are some small cause for reassurance. Still, despite the contemptous pooh-poohing that seems to pass for debate from some quarters, I think there was cause for concern and to some extent still is. The GOP is not threatened politically right now; come 2006 we may see the rhetoric ratcheted up again, and hateful blowhards like Coulter and Savage will be ready and waiting. But at the moment things actually seem to be slightly better on this front than they were even six months ago. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/16 "2005-02-12T17:32:16Z")
Of the following list, I would say that there are several actual traits ( **bolded** ) that are indicative of Fascism (as a distinct movement): \*\*1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism \*\* 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights \*\*3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause \*\* 4. Supremacy of the Military 5. Rampant Sexism 6. Controlled Mass Media 7. Obsession with National Security 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined 9. Corporate Power is Protected 10. Labor Power is Suppressed 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption 14. Fraudulent Elections The rest of the list is either true of a lot of non-Fascist authoritarian states or true of totalitarian states or simply added to the list to make the point that Fascism is “bad.” In addition to those points, I would note that Fascism has traditionally enhanced point #1 with a sense of “identity” (frequently, but not always racial) and it requires a controlled (but not socialist) economy. (This _may_ have been the intended point of #9, but that is not clear.) It also depends on a devotion to a charismatic leader (_Duce, Fuehrer, Generalissimo, etc._.) So far, none of these latter components have established themselves in the current American scene. (Even the people who chant “we must support the president” rarely set up shrines to worship any monumental W’s.) **FriarTed** ’s list was simply written to counterbalance the first list, complete with mirroring the errors on the first list. It providies no valid response to the first. ---
**Author:** ![AlbertHosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AlbertHosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlbertHosteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/17 "2005-02-12T17:45:12Z")
Interesting article … I’m still pondering it. I agree that the US does seem to fit all of those ‘fascist’ criteria. However, that’s a matter of interpretation, and perhaps several other countries would fit them too; on the other hand, I tried asking myself which of those criteria Britain meets, and very few get past. This one jumped out at me: \*\*3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause \*\* That could explain the focus on homosexuality and gay marriage. _still pondering_ Aside … Have I missed something? What’s Communism got to do with this thread? It’s not as if anyone’s suggested ‘let’s drop capitalism and go be happy Communists instead!’ Sorry, but I don’t see what the point of **FriarTed** ’s post was? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/18 "2005-02-12T17:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyone who posts this, and then quotes rjung approvingly, doesn’t require any refutation. Well, if your intention is to be ignored as having nothing of value to say here, the above is a pretty good strategy. Now it seems to me it would be mighty hard to discuss fascism without referencing the most well-known fascist governments of the previous century, and one does not automatically make all comparisons to fascist Germany invalid by shouting “Godwinism” every time the subject comes up. Frankly, **Shodan** , IMO you are way out of line here, and I respectfully suggest you just walk away and cool down for a while, or if you’ve really got a bee in your bonnet, start a Pit thread. > [@](#): > > There’s a big fucking beam in your eye. Pull it out and we can talk. Physician, heal thyself. Anyway, looking at the OP’s list of fascist characteristics, I’ll add my opinions of their relevance to the current administration, recognizing that probably no one cares very much what I think: **The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism** _1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism_ – ‘powerful’ is undefined; in any event US nationalism is, IMO, nowhere near that of numerous other countries _2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights_ – true to a signicant degree of the administration, less so, (I hope) among the public _3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause_ – no disagreement there _4. Supremacy of the Military_ – not applicable, IMO; the military neither rules the country nor, as yet, has much more political power or funding than in previous administrations _5. Rampant Sexism_ – No more so than at any other point in recent US history, and probably less so _6. Controlled Mass Media_ – Not valid, although not for lack of trying by this administration _7. Obsession with National Security_ – valid, but not entirely unjustified _8. Religion and Government are Intertwined_ – I disagree, and furthermore I don’t buy this as a specific characteristic of fascism _9. Corporate Power is Protected_ – generally valid _10. Labor Power is Suppressed_ – not actively suppressed; more like irrelevent in the current climate _11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts_ – not quite to the point of declaring whole whacks of art “degenerate”, but certainly anti-intellectual to some degree _12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment_ – IMO not to any greater degree than previous administrations, except for anti-terrorism, which is treated more as a military matter currently _13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption_ – probably valid to some degree, but I can’t consider this a feature specific to fascism _14. Fraudulent Elections_ – arguable in the case of the 2000 election, not arguable, IMO, for the 2004 election. I do not happen to believe that we are in immediate danger of becoming Germany in 1936. We’re still electing our presidents, more or less, and I don’t personally believe that there is all that much public support for the administration policies that hew closest to a fascist mindset. To try and claim that there nothing in this worth arguing here, however, is patently absurd. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/19 "2005-02-12T17:52:21Z")
We already have fascists in this country. Before and during World War 2, there was the Bund. Afterwards, and even now, there are neoNazis such as the Working Mans White People Party or something. We have the Klan. We have various “militias”. No matter what country or time period you choose, there have always been people like this. Sometimes you can spot them by the goofy outfits and ridiculous titles (Imperial Wizard of the Grand Dragon Poobah, OberUnterSidewaysDownReichFuhrer mit der Scheiss Kopf). Sometimes you can’t spot them at all. It’s a simple fact there will always be this kind of person. I don’t think the counrty will turn into a fascist state. The pendulum will swing the other way, and whoever was involved will be taken down. We did finally figure out Joe McCarthy after all. There are enough checks and balances, and enough of a “loyal opposition” around to prevent it. Just as important, the military is not centered on any individual. It answers to Congress - not the President or any other personality cult, and is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, not the President. Part of that oath is to defend against any enemy forign and domestic. If it got desparate enough, that would include arresting the President himself, on orders from Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/20 "2005-02-12T18:02:43Z")
One of the best Great Debates OPs I’ve seen in a long time, Annaplurabelle. You’ve selected a topic that is timely, extremely important, and debatable, and have presented it with all the right questions and emphasis. If nothing else, this trend toward fascism debunks the myth that libertarians are aligned somehow with the right, or with so-called neo-conservatives. I’ve linked it before, and even opened a thread on it, but I believe that this speech by Al Gore is one of the most important of our time. It is so compelling that I am willing to support his candidacy for president should he seek the nomination (of any party). [Democracy Itself is in Grave Danger](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0624-15.htm) Here is an excerpt: > [@](#): > > It is an extraordinary blessing to live in a nation so carefully designed to protect individual liberty and safeguard self-governance and free communication. But if George Washington could see the current state of his generation’s handiwork and assess the quality of our generation’s stewardship at the beginning of this twenty-first century, what do you suppose he would think about the proposition that our current president claims the unilateral right to arrest and imprison American citizens indefinitely without giving them the right to see a lawyer or inform their families of their whereabouts, and without the necessity of even charging them with any crime. All that is necessary, according to our new president is that he - the president - label any citizen an “unlawful enemy combatant,” and that will be sufficient to justify taking away that citizen’s liberty - even for the rest of his life, if the president so chooses. And there is no appeal. > > What would Thomas Jefferson think of the curious and discredited argument from our Justice Department that the president may authorize what plainly amounts to the torture of prisoners - and that any law or treaty, which attempts to constrain his treatment of prisoners in time of war is itself a violation of the constitution our founders put together. > > What would Benjamin Franklin think of President Bush’s assertion that he has the inherent power - even without a declaration of war by the Congress - to launch an invasion of any nation on Earth, at any time he chooses, for any reason he wishes, even if that nation poses no imminent threat to the United States. > > How long would it take James Madison to dispose of our current President’s recent claim, in Department of Justice legal opinions, that he is no longer subject to the rule of law so long as he is acting in his role as Commander in Chief. > > I think it is safe to say that our founders would be genuinely concerned about these recent developments in American democracy and that they would feel that we are now facing a clear and present danger that has the potential to threaten the future of the American experiment. > > Shouldn’t we be equally concerned? And shouldn’t we ask ourselves how we have come to this point? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=2)