# American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723 "2005-02-12T08:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/181 "2005-02-16T20:31:02Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Declare, then, John Corrado – do you think the Republican Party truckles to the racists who now vote for it or not? Do you think racists are an important part of the crowd under their “big tent” or not? No. I do not think the Republican Party ‘truckles’ to the racists who now vote for it any more than the Democratic Party ‘truckles’ to the racists (black supremacists and anti-semites like the Nation of Islam) who vote for it. I do not think that racists are an important part of the crowd under their ‘big tent’. If it were, I don’t think that the Republican Party would be working so hard to court Hispanic and African-American votes, nor to highlight those minorities who are members of the party and the administration. I agree with what **Captain Amazing** said above. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/182 "2005-02-16T23:36:48Z")
I think the Republicans don’t mind at all having more racists voting for them… and they certainly have a good number like Lott in their midst… but then they aren’t guilty just for being the political choice of the KKK trash… the same way Kerry wasn’t a commie because the American Communist Party was voting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/183 "2005-02-17T00:35:05Z")
I will say that I think the extreme right is more likely to vote for a republican than the extreme left is likely to vote for a democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/184 "2005-02-17T02:04:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I will say that I think the extreme right is more likely to vote for a republican than the extreme left is likely to vote for a democrat. Agreed, but I suspect that may be changing on both sides. I’m pretty sure libertarians are getting exponentially fed up with Republicans. My guess is we’ll see more of a split on the right with angered moderates and libertarians banding together to some degree as well. With Howard Dean heading up the DNC, while Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer and others present a much more unified front on their principals in the Senate, we may also begin to see hard left independents coming on board. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/185 "2005-02-17T02:25:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I will say that I think the extreme right is more likely to vote for a republican than the extreme left is likely to vote for a democrat. And what does that say about the Republican party, and it’s position on the _left v. right_ political spectrum? Of course, IIRC, there are more extreme right-wing people than extreme left-wing people in the US. And as **Snag** says, libertarians (not measured on the left v. right axis) are not happy with the current admin. If enough libertarians (regardless of left v. right leanings) make common cause with the leftists, they’ll tip the scale of the US left v. right spectrum. I believe this is what accounted for the Perot voters in the 1990’s. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/186 "2005-02-17T03:17:42Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Of course, IIRC, there are more extreme right-wing people than extreme left-wing people in the US. True, but I think the disparity looks bigger than it is because the right-wingers are better organized. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/187 "2005-02-17T03:55:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > True, but I think the disparity looks bigger than it is because the right-wingers are better organized. And what does that say about the left-wing? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/188 "2005-02-17T07:07:02Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > And what does that say about the left-wing? 😛 We’re individuals, not Dittoheads? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/189 "2005-02-17T09:41:12Z")
Damn time zones - this was mostly one of the more fascinating debates on GD that I have seen in some time, and I got in too late! :mad: One trend I find quite reassuring is that the movement away from the dissent = treason meme so common during the election cycle. I also find it reassuring that the media and the representative bodies (House and Senate) seems to have found their power again to question the Administration on policy and execution of government. For that is part of their mission, and I was shocked and horrified when it didn’t happen. I also feel that the military is not supreme in our culture; whilst ordinary citizens are supporting the troops almost unconditionally, recruiting into the various armed forces (as well as reserves and national guards) are at all-time lows. The Public is voicing their support for the military, but ‘voting with their feet’ as it were and not supporting it personally. Some of the themes brought up in the OP are occurring, to my mind, but not these. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/190 "2005-02-17T13:01:24Z")
Welcome GomiBoy… its not over yet… 🙂 I agree that its nice that the media got some balls back… but unfortunately so have the democrats… and I think they are playing the spoil sport role to their loss. Anyone notice the recent “AQ is going to attack soon” news ? Seems a new injection of fear mongering… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/191 "2005-02-17T13:10:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Oh, I’m seeing some hysteria all right. And some need to blame “others” for the problems of America. And some demonization. And some dismissal of dissenting views. So I’m with you there. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/192 "2005-02-17T13:16:58Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > One trend I find quite reassuring is that the movement away from the dissent = treason meme so common during the election cycle. I wonder. Again, I have to admit I’m no longer a avid news-junkie, so I only get a pastiche of current events. At any rate, I associate “treason” with military action. Charges of such – ok, ok, let’s say “sentiment” instead – were going strong since the Iraqi conflict began, not just limited to the election cycle. While it does feel like it has died down a bit, perhaps that’s simply due to a sort of acceptance of the war combined with, as you note, the end of the last election cycle? My point being – should the war drums start beating again, won’t the rhetoric get dialed up again? Or what about an attack on US soil (cf. **SentientMeat** ’s thread on “bombing in 2005”). Has the meme really gone away to some extent, or is there just no reason for its expression? > [@GomiBoy](#): > > I also feel that the military is not supreme in our culture; whilst ordinary citizens are supporting the troops almost unconditionally, recruiting into the various armed forces (as well as reserves and national guards) are at all-time lows. The Public is voicing their support for the military, but ‘voting with their feet’ as it were and not supporting it personally. An interesting point, that. What if _they_ started a war on foreign soil and nobody came? Huh. Although, at the same time, I think it’s important to note that it is not necessarily the military that is responsible for a rise in authoritarianism, though it’s one thing to examine. In my mind, that’s more indicative of _foreign_ involvement, which is only half of the story. On the domestic front, it’d be police enforcement/curtailing of civil liberties. It certainly _feels_ to me like there’s a rise in that sentiment (e.g., acceptance of “Homeland Security” measures, first amendment issues like “decency in the media” or the poll of high-schoolers who say there’s too much freedom of speech, search and seizure abuses such as loosening the need for warrants or broadening of who qualifies as a “terrorist”, detainment without charges, etc.). Is an examination of the military’s role sufficient for judging the mood of the day? If not, what about the rest of it? ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/193 "2005-02-17T13:52:14Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > One trend I find quite reassuring is that the movement away from the dissent = treason meme so common during the election cycle. Not so fast: > **[Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source](https://www.newsday.com)** > > Breaking News, data & opinions in business, sports, entertainment, travel, lifestyle, plus much more. Newsday.com is the leading news source for Long Island & NYC. Minarik, the chairman of the New York Republican Party said that “the Democrats simply have refused to learn the lessons of the past two election cycles, and now they can be accurately called the party of Barbara Boxer, Lynne Stewart and Howard Dean.” Lynne Stewart, convicted last week of aiding terrorists… That meme is alive and well, and just looking to rear its ugly head again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/194 "2005-02-17T14:18:53Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > I do not think that racists are an important part of the crowd under their ‘big tent’. > > If it were, I don’t think that the Republican Party would be working so hard to court Hispanic and African-American votes, nor to highlight those minorities who are members of the party and the administration. You’re not cynical enough, **John**. The white racists \*are \* part of the GOP crowd, and in enough quantities to tip an election, as we know. You can claim GOP moral equivalence (there we go again with _that_) to black racists if you want, but then you’ll have to compare numbers and cite the black racists’ support for Democrats if you want to maintain that position. Do you? \*Can \* you? You’re also mistaken in asserting that a faction has to support all of a party’s positions on any subject or else they wouldn’t want to join it at all. You should know that isn’t how it works here - both major parties are coalitions of disparate groups who use each other to get at least part of what they want. The religious right is willing to use the GOP as a flag of convenience and can stomach the racists as long as they get their votes and don’t have to do much for them, and the racists can stomach the McCarthyites who can stomach the libertarians etc. All that matters is that they vote for you and that requires that you vote for them when you have to. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/195 "2005-02-17T14:19:31Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > Is an examination of the military’s role sufficient for judging the mood of the day? If not, what about the rest of it? I believe not; the military is indicative of our society, not ruling it; therfore the role of the military doesn’t really apply here. What I am talking about is the parallels to Weimar and to Nazi Germany. People clap for servicemen and -women in airports, give up their seats on planes, and have yellow stickers on their SUVs. But they don’t encourage their kids to join up, if recruiting is any indicator. I believe that this does show the reality of the situation vis a vis the military’s supremacy in popular culture. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/196 "2005-02-17T14:23:50Z")
I should also have pointed out that the GOP’s apparent courting of minorities (ref. Negro Night at the Convention in 2000, a particularly tasteless episode) has every appearance of simple window-dressing. The leadership certainly knows their embrace of the white racist faction alienates enough people to cost them elections. They also know that the black and Hispanic population is growing faster than the white population, and that at some point they’ll have to put the legacy of the Southern Strategy behind them. There is no evidence of a single ounce of sincerity among the leadership in any of it, although there are certainly members of the other factions in the party who deplore it and would like it to go away (but keep the votes). There are also those, on this board even, who so strongly wish it wasn’t true that they deny it. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/197 "2005-02-17T14:34:29Z")
> [@edwino](#): > > Not so fast: > [http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--minarik-democrats0216feb16,0,7895523,print.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork](http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--minarik-democrats0216feb16,0,7895523,print.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork) > > \ > > That meme is alive and well, and just looking to rear its ugly head again. Sorry, I disagree. This isn’t systemic enough. This is one person, regardless of whether he’s in a position of leadership or not, who said something regretable. It’s not the over-the-top screaming of ‘traitor’ against any dissent that we had 6 months or more ago, and it’s not coming from enough sources. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/198 "2005-02-17T14:55:50Z")
The night is young. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/199 "2005-02-17T15:02:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The night is young. Maybe; I would like to believe that calmer heads will prevail in the Republican Party ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/200 "2005-02-17T15:19:01Z")
They might yet. But even calm persons, \*especially \* calm persons, know where their votes come from. The liberals=traitors meme actually works better if it is insinuated rather than screamed, anyway. Lest we forget, it was most recently popularized by Gingrich’s 1996 GOPAC memo, [Language: A Key Mechanism of Control"](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4443.htm), written by the GOP’s elected Speaker to help others win, too: > [@](#): > > Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party. > > abuse of power > anti- (issue): flag, family, child, jobs > betray > bizarre > bosses > bureaucracy > cheat > coercion > “compassion” is not enough > collapse(ing) > consequences > corrupt > corruption > criminal rights > crisis > cynicism > decay > deeper > destroy > destructive > devour > disgrace > endanger > excuses > failure (fail) > greed > hypocrisy > ideological > impose > incompetent > insecure > insensitive > intolerant > \*\*liberal \*\* > lie > limit(s) > machine > mandate(s) > obsolete > pathetic > patronage > permissive attitude > pessimistic > punish (poor …) > radical > red tape > self-serving > selfish > sensationalists > shallow > shame > sick > spend(ing) > stagnation > status quo > steal > taxes > they/them > threaten > \*\*traitors \*\* > unionized > urgent (cy) > waste > welfare Whatever it takes, right, guys? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=11)