# American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723 "2005-02-12T08:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/201 "2005-02-17T16:57:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re not cynical enough, **John**. The white racists \*are \* part of the GOP crowd, and in enough quantities to tip an election, as we know. You can claim GOP moral equivalence (there we go again with _that_) to black racists if you want, but then you’ll have to compare numbers and cite the black racists’ support for Democrats if you want to maintain that position. Do you? \*Can \* you? Do you have a cite supporting your claim that there are enough whire racists supporting the GOP to tip an election? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/202 "2005-02-17T18:03:36Z")
Check the results of the last 2 presidential elections, Baba. Pretty tight, huh? Wouldn’t take much to tip 'em, huh? Use your common sense. No, you won’t find polls showing numbers of whites _self-describing_ as racist, of course. You do accept, I trust, that there are far more whites than blacks in the US and that therefore there are likely far more white racists than black racists? But you only have to look at some of the people who get elected on Republican tickets - Lott, Coburn, Thurmond, Helms, Barr, _ad nauseam_ … who are the comparable Democratic \*black \* racists, in Congress or just serious vote-getters for that matter, that **John Corrado** and presumably you too have tried to declare their moral equivalent? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/203 "2005-02-18T03:12:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, you won’t find polls showing numbers of whites _self-describing_ as racist, of course. That might be changing: > [@](#): > > [**White-supremacist groups go public to seek members**](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002179466_supremacists14.html) > > White-supremacist groups are moving aggressively to recruit new members by promoting their violent, racist ideologies on billboards, in radio commercials and in leaflets tossed on suburban driveways. > > Watching with mounting alarm, civil-rights monitors say these tactics stake out a much bolder, more public role for many hate groups, which are trying to shed their image as shadowy extremists and claim more mainstream support. > > The National Alliance, which calls for ridding the land of minorities, has led the drive to raise the profile of white supremacists. > > The local chapter spent $1,500 on MetroLink ads in St. Louis last month, plastering nearly every commuter train car in the city with a blue-and-white placard declaring “The Future belongs to us!” and listing the group’s Web site and phone number. > > The same chapter bought airtime on local talk radio last fall, urging whites to fight for the survival of “white America.” > > “We want to use mainstream advertising to say to the public: We’re not a shadowy group. This is what we believe in, and we’re proud of it,” chapter leader Aaron Collins said. “We’re trying to give people courage. We want to show them, if you stand up for what you believe in, you’re not going to be crucified.” > > Other chapters of the National Alliance have posted billboards in Utah, Nevada and Florida. The group also has coordinated massive leaflet drops, distributing 100,000 fliers in a single night in states as diverse as New Jersey, Alabama and Nebraska. > > Public outreach is not new for white-supremacist groups. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan have been picking up litter for Missouri’s Adopt-a-Highway program for years. > > But hate-group monitors say the latest recruitment campaigns are much broader than any they’ve seen previously. > > Thomas Robb, national director of the Klan, urges his members to serve on community boards and in political parties so they can push their white-power agenda from positions of social respect. > > As Walker put it: “The current powers-that-be constantly demonize us. But if we can get our message out to enough people, we’ll gain legitimacy with the public.” > > Although no one offers hard numbers, white supremacists contend — and their sharpest critics agree — that the recruitment strategy is working. > > Media reports about the Salt Lake City billboard drove 4,500 visitors to the National Alliance’s local Web site in a single week, compared with average traffic of 100 hits a month, Walker said. > > “You know the old saying: It pays to advertise,” Walker said. “Only we’re not selling a product, we’re announcing an idea.” ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/204 "2005-02-18T03:57:41Z")
In addition to my concerns about runaway, unregulated corporatism where consolidation continues at a rapid pace towards creating certain quasi-monopolistic market forces, another thing that stinks of fascism is the hate speech, much of it that is so readily allowed on mainstream media. I’m not talking about simple smarmy insults; I’m taking about some stuff that is outright vicious, particularly against the Democrats and liberals in general. Here is an entry from the Daily Kos, a liberal blog where a diarist did a satirical ‘rant’ against Republicans where they hyper linked things said by the right against the left, using their own words against them. You’ll find everything from suggestions of violence to accusations of their lack of patriotism simply for their viewpoint. Following some of these links you’ll find they may be from the same page, or linked to a subscription site. However following even a few of them makes the [point](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/14/141747/345). What disturbs me is that we don’t hear concern about this from the so-called-liberal-mainstream-media. Do we see CBS, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, FOX or others calling their competitors out on this? Or the press? Radio is a hotbed of such comments. Not that the left is squeaky clean; there are a few comments that follow this article which express satisfaction from the notion of seeing the tables turned. And I’m sure examples from the left can be found (cough - Mike Malloy - cough). Yet do we see the same level of offensiveness from the left so widely distributed (at his time at least) over major media outlets? And when outright veiled threats, like some of these are being made, do not stir outrage from the general public, it’s not a good sign any way you look at it. Let a liberal commentator make such retorts and they’re decried as extremist, tending to be shouted down. Much of this discourse in the Daily Kos article was made during the least election cycle. You wouldn’t find anything like this in mainstream public discourse during the Reagan era – I think he would have been personally offended by much of it. What’s changed? We haven’t seen this level of discourse and these accusations so freely thrown around since the time of McCarthy. When did it start becoming so prevalent? Even then, pundits didn’t talk publicly about using baseball bats to get their message across. I assure you, if this viciousness continues to ramp up, it’s a sure sign of mass propaganda being accepted by the masses. And before people start chiming in about free speech what about the new censorship with currently upgraded penalties for FCC fines for up to $500,000 _per station_ for ‘indecent content’? Howard Stern has about had it with the whole broadcast thing because now, it’s not only about the F word or an exposed nipple, his advisors are not quite sure where the line is being drawn by the new regulations. These heavy fines, payable by the on-air personality are meant for create an environment of self-censorship where one slip could economically devastate some poor drive-time personality that doesn’t hit the 7 second delay button in time. And do you think there aren’t “concerned citizens” sitting out there ready to petition the FCC over the first untoward thing they dislike? Fast-forward a continuation of this climate building over the next 10 years and what might America look like? If it’s OK to be fined into bankruptcy if someone is offended by your ‘unpatriotic’ political views? At this moment, I concede it seems a bit of a stretch, yet nor it is not a huge leap. An economic downturn, a terrorist attack or two, an Iraqi quagmire, greater favoritism towards corporations trumping the means for individuals to defend their rights, and it’s not much of a leap at all. Desperate people do desperate things. While we are supposed to avoid 20th century comparisons here, that one fits all the models, and not only that of fascism. Lastly, regarding most of the discussion on the previous page of this thread, I hope this points out that not all bigotry needs to be based on race. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/205 "2005-02-18T04:22:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They might yet. But even calm persons, \*especially \* calm persons, know where their votes come from. The liberals=traitors meme actually works better if it is insinuated rather than screamed, anyway. > > Lest we forget, it was most recently popularized by Gingrich’s 1996 GOPAC memo, [Language: A Key Mechanism of Control"](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4443.htm), written by the GOP’s elected Speaker to help others win, too: > > > [@](#): > > > > Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party. > > > > abuse of power > > anti- (issue): flag, family, child, jobs > > betray > > bizarre > > bosses > > bureaucracy > > cheat > > coercion > > “compassion” is not enough > > collapse(ing) > > consequences > > corrupt > > corruption > > criminal rights > > crisis > > cynicism > > decay > > deeper > > destroy > > destructive > > devour > > disgrace > > endanger > > excuses > > failure (fail) > > greed > > hypocrisy > > ideological > > impose > > incompetent > > insecure > > insensitive > > intolerant > > liberal > > lie > > limit(s) > > machine > > mandate(s) > > obsolete > > pathetic > > patronage > > permissive attitude > > pessimistic > > punish (poor …) > > radical > > red tape > > self-serving > > selfish > > sensationalists > > shallow > > shame > > sick > > spend(ing) > > stagnation > > status quo > > steal > > taxes > > they/them > > threaten > > traitors > > unionized > > urgent (cy) > > waste > > welfare > > Whatever it takes, right, guys? You know, I would very much like to see one of our thoughtful Republicans explain or defend the (a)morality of this memo, or, alternatively, denounce it as not what they conceive their party to stand for. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/206 "2005-02-18T04:32:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You know, I would very much like to see one of our thoughtful Republicans explain or defend the (a)morality of this memo, or, alternatively, denounce it as not what they conceive their party to stand for. The ‘morality’ of the memo? Are you joking? Generously assuming that the ‘cite’ is correct, so what? It’s a list of words that could be used to describe yourself and your opponent. Nothing more. Methinks it would be more helpful if you and yours outlined what is your opposition to these words; certainly the other side is no stranger to using loaded words and phrases, so what gives? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/207 "2005-02-18T04:47:58Z")
That list (yes, it is legit) was written with the help of pollster, Frank Luntz, who used to work for Gingrich. [A more recent example](http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/10921103.htm) would be the AP FOIA disclosure of his meetings with Homeland Security’s Tom Ridge during the presidential campaign: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge met privately with Republican pollsters twice in a 10-day span last spring as he embarked on more than a dozen trips to presidential battleground states. > > Ridge’s get-togethers with Republican strategists Frank Luntz and Bill McInturff during a period the secretary was saying his agency was playing no role in Bush’s re-election campaign were revealed in daily appointment calendars obtained by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act. > > **"We don’t do politics in the Department of Homeland Security," Ridge told reporters during the election season.** > > His aides resisted releasing the calendars for over a year, finally providing them to the AP three days after Ridge left office this month. > > Homeland Security officials said the meeting with Luntz at department headquarters was aimed at improving public communication of the department’s message, particularly on TV. Ridge declined an interview with the AP about the calendars, referring questions to former aides. > > **At the time of Ridge’s meetings with the pollsters, President Bush’s re-election campaign was reeling from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal** and the news media was speculating that Ridge might replace Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, or even Vice President Dick Cheney. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/208 "2005-02-18T05:01:14Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > The ‘morality’ of the memo? Are you joking? Generously assuming that the ‘cite’ is correct, so what? It’s a list of words that could be used to describe yourself and your opponent. Nothing more. > > Methinks it would be more helpful if you and yours outlined what is your opposition to these words; certainly the other side is no stranger to using loaded words and phrases, so what gives? You mean there is no moral code governing political speech? I’m sure that that will come as no surprise to those of us who have been convinced that the Republican Party is “playing to the Religious Right” in its policies, rather than acting out of conviction. But I **am** surprised to see you admit it openly! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/209 "2005-02-18T06:50:39Z")
Doubtlessly, **Brutus** believes “win at _any_ cost” is a virtue… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/210 "2005-02-18T13:38:29Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Doubtlessly, **Brutus** believes “win at _any_ cost” is a virtue… “Every vice is the corruption of a virtue.” – St. Augustine 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/211 "2005-02-18T14:30:03Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Doubtlessly, **Brutus** believes “win at _any_ cost” is a virtue… So, is it more virtuous to lose and therefore have no say in the affairs of government, or more virtuous to take amoral steps to win and therefore govern in a way you see as moral? That is a completely philosophical question, of course; I ascribe to neither Democrats nor Republicans morality in campaigning or governing. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/212 "2005-02-18T14:37:13Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > So, is it more virtuous to lose and therefore have no say in the affairs of government, or more virtuous to take amoral steps to win and therefore govern in a way you see as moral? Ends justify the means, anyone? That way lies madness me thinks… ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/213 "2005-02-18T14:48:44Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > It’s a list of words that could be used to describe yourself and your opponent. So, **Brutus** , let me get this straight - you think it’s OK, within the confines of say, a debate on the floor of the Senate, to call the plans of your political opponents treasonous? To call those who propose such plans traitors? After all, treasonous and traitor are just two words, right? Yes, neither side is adverse to using strong, loaded words to describe their opponents. The difference is, I have never seen a memo such as this from the leadership of the Democratic Party to it’s footsoldiers, instructing them to call the Republican Party traitors and homewreckers. If you can produce such a memo, I will accept that the Dems are as bad as you lot. But until then, I maintain that the Republican Party is the party of dirty tricks, spin, buzzwords and mudslinging rather than substantive debate on facts regarding issues of grave national importance. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/214 "2005-02-18T14:50:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You mean there is no moral code governing political speech? I don’t see how that follows. What’s immoral about using negative words to describe your political opponents and positive words to describe you? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/215 "2005-02-18T15:48:35Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t see how that follows. What’s immoral about using negative words to describe your political opponents and positive words to describe you? The fact that some words are so powerfully loaded that they have no place in political discourse. Words such as traitor, treason, coward, etc… really don’t help debate. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/216 "2005-02-18T16:11:23Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > The fact that some words are so powerfully loaded that they have no place in political discourse. Words such as traitor, treason, coward, etc… really don’t help debate. It depends on what one’s view of the purpose of “political discourse” is. You’re assuming it is to reach a rational policy. Many seem to feel that it is simply about forcing their will on others. Think Brutus (no, not the SDMB **Brutus** , the Julius Caesar Brutus) and Marc Antony. Political tools who relied on rhetoric to manipulate general sentiment. Whether their intentions or the end results were desirable is not the point; it’s the use of _pathos_ over _logos_ I’m getting at. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/217 "2005-02-18T16:19:06Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Generously assuming that the ‘cite’ is correct, so what? Bite me. It’s correct, and you know it’s correct, too. > [@](#): > > Methinks it would be more helpful if you and yours outlined what is your opposition to these words; certainly the other side is no stranger to using loaded words and phrases, so what gives? One more example of “They must be at least as bad as we are, so the facts to support that view must exist too” from the partisan right, immediately following one more case of “Party Before Country”. Shouldn’t be surprising, though, following the earlier example above of “I can’t deny it’s true, so I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist”. You’ve hit the trifecta of Hard-Right Self-Comforting Bullshit, 2005 Version, pal. For those others who may be reading and may be able to understand: The people who differ with you are just as, at least as, responsible and patriotic citizens as you are. They contribute as much and expect as much in return as you do. They are not the enemy, they are your fellow citizens. A government must balance and represent the needs of all citizens, and must command the respect of all citizens. A faction that gains control by demonizing and alienating its opponents cannot do so and cannot govern credibly. Absorb that and we can continue. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/218 "2005-02-18T16:22:25Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > The fact that some words are so powerfully loaded that they have no place in political discourse. Words such as traitor, treason, coward, etc… really don’t help debate. But the goal isn’t to carefully debate the issues. The goal is to win the election and get your policies through, which means painting your side white and your opponent black. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/219 "2005-02-18T17:08:37Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But the goal isn’t to carefully debate the issues. The goal is to win the election and get your policies through, which means painting your side white and your opponent black. Since when is the goal winning at all costs? I thought the job was to represent the people and be a servant of the people, not keep getting re-elected. Man, I even managed that with a straight face. You guys must have been so impressed! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/220 "2005-02-18T23:19:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Bite me. It’s correct, and you know it’s correct, too. Don’t be such a fool. For the sake of argument, I am willing to give the dubious nature of the cite a pass, but a quick googling that same comments turned up naught but loony lefty sites. Go figure. > [@](#): > > One more example of “They must be at least as bad as we are, so the facts to support that view must exist too” from the partisan right, immediately following one more case of “Party Before Country”… I never said either was bad. It’s politics. It’s using words to convince people to vote for you and not the other side. > [@](#): > > For those others who may be reading and may be able to understand: The people who differ with you are just as, at least as, responsible and patriotic citizens as you are… Sadly, that is not the case in modern American politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=12)