# American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723 "2005-02-12T08:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/221 "2005-02-18T23:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > One more example of “They must be at least as bad as we are, so the facts to support that view must exist too” from the partisan right, immediately following one more case of “Party Before Country”… > > > [@Brutus](#): > > > > I never said either was bad. It’s politics. It’s using words to convince people to vote for you and not the other side. Since you think so, here are a few words provided from the link on my previous post meant to convince people not to vote for Republicans: George Bush is off his lithium. He’s lost his mind. He’s a mental patient. He’s taken the side of the enemy. He’s pulled his raft across the river of sanity. He’s insane. He needs help. He needs medication. His biggest fans are Al-Aqaeda. He suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder. He is perverse. George Bush is also anti-American. Which isn’t surprising, since some Republicans are not on the side of their own country. And their wealthiest donors give money to aid terrorists. Which leads you to conclude that Bush is not qualified to be a guard at Abu Gharib. Republican activists are out of control and repulse Americans. Although once and a while conservative hate–liberal groups point out that I make a mistake. Even if they have dementia and form the insane wing of the Republican Party. But don’t forget that they are objectively pro-Bin Laden. Which should be expected from NASCAR thugs. Who are borderline traitorous. They must prove their patriotism. Nah, forget it. All conservatives are traitors. For example, NewsMax publishes traitors. The problem is that they carry the flag of the enemy, and lavish love upon fascists. All quite reasonable, eh **Brutus?** They’re only words. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/222 "2005-02-19T00:00:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For those others who may be reading and may be able to understand: The people who differ with you are just as, at least as, responsible and patriotic citizens as you are. They contribute as much and expect as much in return as you do. They are not the enemy, they are your fellow citizens. A government must balance and represent the needs of all citizens, and must command the respect of all citizens. A faction that gains control by demonizing and alienating its opponents cannot do so and cannot govern credibly. Absorb that and we can continue. Elvis, I agree with this completely. And I agree that Republican partisans here and elsewhere can read these words and profit. But surely you can agree that some of the…well, I won’t call them Democratic partisans, since the Democratic party is in a different position than the Republicans. Let’s call them left-wing partisans, or whatever. Surely you can agee that some people on your side…who have been talking about how they are worried about a fascist takeover of America in this thread, and on and on…can do the same? More on point, can YOU read the words you wrote, and apply them to yourself? It’s easy to see how your political opponents demonize and alienate their political opponents. It isn’t so easy to see how your own side does the same. It especially isn’t so easy to see how you might do the same thing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/223 "2005-02-19T04:55:56Z")
That would be reasonable, if it weren’t for the fact that still seem to _need_ to misrepresent the OP. The article cited in the OP that suggests a movement towards fascism comes from American _Conservative_. Do you consider them “left-wing partisans, or _whatever_”? It would also help if you had more than a simplistic, knee-jerk definition of fascism as a basis for your disagreement. As I said in the OP, I know it’s a loaded word, but it was not always so. Do you really believe the people who embraced it when it began in Italy were consciously embracing _evil_??? Only in hindsight do we know the dangers of what it could lead to (and did lead to). My grandfather was one of those Italians. He was wrong, but he wasn’t evil. Unfortunately, he and many others didn’t see the dangers down the road, until it was too late. That’s what I hoped to discuss in this thread. Thinking it’s possible that some people are embracing ideas that could turn out badly is not demonising them. I just wonder why you would equate the possibility of being wrong as being demonised. Is the possibility that you might be wrong that horrifying to you? ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/224 "2005-02-19T05:20:21Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > The fact that some words are so powerfully loaded that they have no place in political discourse. Words such as traitor, treason, coward, etc… really don’t help debate. Kind of like racist, warmonger, liar, etc… right? To even contend that both don’t play the same game is disingenuous to say the least. I would imagine that the game is so inherent in democratic politics that a memo to call someone racist by a minority group any chance they got would be like saying the sky is blue. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/225 "2005-02-20T21:14:18Z")
**ElvisL1ves** and **Brutus** , knock off the personal remarks. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/226 "2005-02-21T15:13:04Z")
I’m sorry if it looks that way, **Tom** , it wasn’t my intention to attack anything but bullshit itself. I’ll try to be more diplomatic. **Brutus** , the cite is accurate, it was well-publicized at the time and since, and you don’t gain a thing by attempting to demonize the owners of any sites that post copies of it. Facts are facts, pal. Your following assertion that any and all words are OK if they help defeat what you call “the other side” simply illustrates the point. > [@me](#): > > The people who differ with you are just as, at least as, responsible and patriotic citizens as you are… > [@](#): > > Sadly, that is not the case in modern American politics. Since you agree that’s sad, it would certainly be well to explore why that is, who is most responsible for making it that way, and who should do what to eliminate the problem. An acknowledgment of the _fact_ (yes) that it has been part of GOP rhetoric ever since Gingrich’s exhortations to call non-Republicans “traitors” would be a good start. **Lemur866** , perhaps you can help us out here by pointing out all the good things the current Republican administration and Congress have done to unite us and make us all feel like we have a say in this democracy. The OP does have facts behind it, I hope you’ll acknowledge. You don’t end rape by suggesting that the victims enjoy it instead, and you don’t fight fascistic trends by calling opposition simple divisiveness. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/227 "2005-02-21T15:16:27Z")
A thought by the late Hunter Thompson: > [@](#): > > I believe the Republicans have never thought that democracy was anything but a tribal myth. The GOP is the party of capital. It’s pretty basic. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/228 "2005-02-21T20:10:57Z")
See, that’s the point I was trying to make, Elvis. On the one hand, you ask that Republican partisans concede that the Democrats aren’t consciously trying to destroy America…and on the other hand you accuse Republicans of consciously trying to destroy America. And your defense is that, hey, the Republicans really ARE trying to destroy America. Your earlier argument seemed to be saying that the important thing was to extend to one’s politcal opponents the courtesy of assuming that they are arguing in good faith. But then you turn around and refuse to extend that same courtesy to YOUR opponents. Either we can all sit down together and hold rational disagreements and compromise in good faith, or not. If you aren’t willing to believe the Republican partisans on this board are arguing in good faith, why should they believe you are arguing in good faith? Is the problem that they don’t agree you are arguing in good faith, or is the problem that they aren’t arguing in good faith? Yeah, I understand that you believe your political views are correct, otherwise you wouldn’t hold them. Do you think I hold my political views (laying aside whether your impression of my political views maps to my actual politcal views in any way) because I honestly think they are correct? Or am I engaged in something more sinister? Can someone argue against the “America is sliding into Fascism!” meme without being on the side of the Fascists? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/229 "2005-02-21T20:46:40Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > That would be reasonable, if it weren’t for the fact that still seem to _need_ to misrepresent the OP. The article cited in the OP that suggests a movement towards fascism comes from American _Conservative_. Do you consider them “left-wing partisans, or _whatever_”? > > It would also help if you had more than a simplistic, knee-jerk definition of fascism as a basis for your disagreement. As I said in the OP, I know it’s a loaded word, but it was not always so. Do you really believe the people who embraced it when it began in Italy were consciously embracing _evil_??? Only in hindsight do we know the dangers of what it could lead to (and did lead to). My grandfather was one of those Italians. He was wrong, but he wasn’t evil. Unfortunately, he and many others didn’t see the dangers down the road, until it was too late. > > That’s what I hoped to discuss in this thread. Thinking it’s possible that some people are embracing ideas that could turn out badly is not demonising them. I just wonder why you would equate the possibility of being wrong as being demonised. Is the possibility that you might be wrong that horrifying to you? And that’s why I agreed that we could have a thread about how America was going in a bad direction. Of course most of the original Fascists didn’t understand that they were creating a disaster, and of course there are things going on in America today that could lead to disaster. Yeah, people can hold problematic beliefs in good faith, things that are likely to lead to disaster, but they are too blind to see the truth. But not Fascism, for crying out loud! No one today can argue for Fascism in good faith, surely we can agree on that? That is the essence of why I reacted so negatively to your OP…if we are headed for fascism, if there are people who are working to create fascism in America, no one can argue that they are acting in good faith. Yeah, America could be heading down the tubes, but it isn’t going down the tubes because of fascism, or fascist trends. We’re going down the tubes in our own way, and analogies to european politics in the 1930s can only be marginally useful at best, and more likely are counterproductive, since they are simply going to annoy some people rather than convince them, and I offer myself as exhibit A. It’s related to my complaint above to Elvis. It’s no use contending that the people moving us toward fascism are acting in mistaken good faith, since hey, it’s fascism! So if people are moving us toward fascism they can’t be acting in good faith, since we have the well known history of the 30s and 40s as an example that fascism is going to lead to disaster. Agreed? Fascism didn’t strike Spain and Italy and Germany by accident, there was a critical mass of people–not a majority, but a powerful plurality–who wanted fascism, who thought fascism would be good for their country. Fascist dictatorships are popular, as opposed to the many garden-variety kleptocratic ideology-less dictatorships that many people around the world today suffer from. America cannot be headed for fascism without a similar constituency for fascism. Any accusation of support for fascism today is therefore not an accusation of stupidity or foolishness or mistaken ideology, but rather of depraved evil. Which is why you won’t actually go so far as to accuse people of supporting fascism today. But I can’t get past the contradiction. If no one is actually supporting fascism, we aren’t going to have fascism, and your worry about fascism is misplaced. But if people are actively supporting fascism, then shouldn’t we be naming names and ripping off the masks and exposing the evil underneath? Vagueness doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/230 "2005-02-22T00:51:13Z")
So you’re _not_ conceding that the OP has some factual basis? If you’re not, then you need to discuss that. If you are, then your complaint to me has no merit and you need to join your fellow citizens on the barricades. Your implicit claim to be above it all is not worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/231 "2005-02-22T15:43:45Z")
Yeah, I dispute the claim we are heading toward fascism, haven’t you been paying attention? We are not heading for fascism. I am discussing it, I’ve given plenty of reasons why I think the OP is bunk. You don’t think I could express that opinion in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/232 "2005-02-22T16:08:01Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > That would be reasonable, if it weren’t for the fact that still seem to _need_ to misrepresent the OP. The article cited in the OP that suggests a movement towards fascism comes from American _Conservative_. Do you consider them “left-wing partisans, or _whatever_”? Putting aside the irony of Pat Buchanan’s people accusing other people of fascism, they’ve got some kind of irrational fear of neoconservativism and of internationalism generally. It’s not like they were ever friendly to the movement, or willing to objectively analyze it. This is just partisan mudslinging on American Conservative’s part. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/233 "2005-02-22T16:14:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yeah, I dispute the claim we are heading toward fascism, haven’t you been paying attention? You do deny it, but don’t discuss why. You don’t explore any of the reasons stated, or provide alternative reasons. You instead simply deride the good faith of those of us who do worry about it. That is not at all helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/234 "2005-02-22T17:24:41Z")
Oh for pity’s sake. Have you even been reading what I’ve wrote for the past, what is it, five pages? But I’ll summarize for you one more time. Fascism isn’t just another word for authoritarian rule. It is an authoritarian ideology. It requires a popular movement in support of fascism. There is no such popular movement in support of fascism today. If you contend that such a movement exists, who are they? Where are they? Is it the Bush administration? The Republican party? The Aryan Nations? People who worship Michael Moore, Mel Gibson, or Rush Limbaugh? The Christian Coalition? [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)? The Trilateral Commision? Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? Posters here on the SDMB? Me? Since the well known disasters of the 30s and 40s have proven fascism to be unworkable, explain the mindset of those fascists. Why do they support fascism when every reasonable person knows fascism will be a disaster? Yes, people in 1930s Europe might have mistakenly supported fascism in good faith, but they surely cannot do so in 2005 America. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/235 "2005-02-22T20:53:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Since the well known disasters of the 30s and 40s have proven fascism to be unworkable, explain the mindset of those fascists. Why do they support fascism when every reasonable person knows fascism will be a disaster? Because they _do not recognise it as_ “fascism”! This is the point you keep missing! Okay. In hindsight, I think the biggest problem here is [**your definition of fascism**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5840558&postcount=140) in this thread, repeated [in the Godwin thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5870842&postcount=15), doesn’t allow for this debate in the way I intended. IMO, your definition is way off the mark for _any_ reasonable discussion. I suggest you either defend your definition, with cites or academic theories that point to how you formed your ideas, or take the OP in good faith, and debate it _on its own terms_. I’d really like to see a cite that defends “_everyone knows_ that fascism = the holocaust”, as you keep claiming. In this [post on page 1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5832433&postcount=15), **Orbifold** cites David Neiwert’s blog. [Here](http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php) is the “definitive edition” of Neiwert’s original blog entries re fascism. I second the recommendation (and thanks to **Orbifold** for the heads up). From Robert O. Paxton (author of _Anatomy of Fascism_) via Neiwert: > [@](#): > > If we cannot examine fascism synthetically, we risk being unable to understand this century, or the next. **We must have a word, and for lack of a better one, we must employ the word that Mussolini borrowed from the vocabulary of the Italian Left in 1919** , before his movement had assumed its mature form. Obliged to use the term fascism, we ought to use it well. My bolding. If you still want to debate the _definition_ of fascism, go to it (I don’t mind fruitful hijacks) - I’m still researching the subject, and this thread was part of that - _not_ an assertion, or partisan mudslinging, as has been suggested by some. I suggest you read the first four parts of Neiwert as background. In part five (Proto-Fascism in America), we come to this: > [@](#): > > **It’s clear by now, I hope, that fascism isn’t something peculiar to Europe, but in fact grew out of an impulse that appears throughout history in many different cultures.** This impulse is, as Roger Griffin puts it, **"ultra-nationalism that aspires to bring about the renewal of a nation’s entire political culture."** Again from Paxton: > [@](#): > > …[E]ach national variant of **fascism draws its legitimacy, as we shall see, not from some universal scripture but from what it considers the most authentic elements of its own community identity.** Religion, for example, would certainly play a much larger role in an authentic fascism in the United States than in the first European fascisms, which were pagan for contingent historical reasons. I hope that makes my point re the OP (“American” fascism) clearer to you. As to your assertion that “fascism is extinct” - care to defend that? How else would you define the Klu Klux Klan or other white supremacy/racist groups still active? Or the stated goals of OBL, for that matter? And speaking of hijacks: Can someone define the difference between _authoritarianism_ and _totalitarianism_? I had assumed it was a question of _degree of repression_ (ie, authoritarianism is totalitarianism-lite), but the more I read the more I am confused about it. Seems to me these terms are being thrown out much too loosely to be informative (even by academics). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/236 "2005-02-22T21:10:54Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Fascism isn’t just another word for authoritarian rule. It is an authoritarian ideology. It requires a popular movement in support of fascism. There is no such popular movement in support of fascism today. It doesn’t require that its followers use the term “fascism.” Just like a racist can be a racist without saying “I am a racist,” a fascist can be a fascist (or lean toward fascism) without categorizing herself that way. So no. I don’t think you’ll find many groups claiming to be pro-fascist, but if we found a workable definition of the word, I think you’d be able to find groups that could be defined, objectively, as fascist. The problem is one of shifting goalposts. What would you consider proof of a popular movement in support of fascism? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/237 "2005-02-22T21:25:36Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > As to your assertion that “fascism is extinct” - care to defend that? How else would you define the Klu Klux Klan or other white supremacy/racist groups still active? Or the stated goals of OBL, for that matter? > > And speaking of hijacks: Can someone define the difference between _authoritarianism_ and _totalitarianism_? I had assumed it was a question of _degree of repression_ (ie, authoritarianism is totalitarianism-lite), but the more I read the more I am confused about it. Seems to me these terms are being thrown out much too loosely to be informative (even by academics). Fascism is extinct as a viable political philosophy. Some of the white supremicist/racist groups are probably fascist, especially the American Nazi party and splinter groups. The rest are are just racist and anti-semetic. It’s possible to be a racist and not a fascist. OBL isn’t a fascist either. He’s a radical Islamist. As for the authoritanianism/totalitarianism difference…a lot of governments are authoritarian. In an authoritarian government, your role as a citizen is to shut up and do what you’re told. You don’t have any civil or political rights, or at least not many, but you don’t have many special civil responsibilities either. Pay your taxes, spend time in the army (maybe), and that’s it. You don’t even have to like the government, although if you dislike the government, you should make sure you don’t say that. Totalitarian governments are rare (Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union, China during the Cultural Revolution). In a totalitarian government, you still probably don’t have any civil rights, but these are populist governments. The government wants you to love it, and you will love it. You’re expected to join civic organizations, like the Party, you’re expected to rat out your neighbors who aren’t enthusiastic enough, you have to turn over your kids to them for indoctrination on how great the State is, and most importantly, the State and government has to come first…ahead of family, ahead of religion, ahead of friends, ahead of everything. An authoritarian government is perfectly happy to have you the way you are. A totalitarian government wants to reshape you to the way they are. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/238 "2005-02-23T00:43:25Z")
**Lemur866** , Neo-fascism can be defined simply by the steps that lead towards a fascist environment. From Wikipedia, these signs include: 1. exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual, 2. uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, 3. engages in severe economic and social regimentation. 4. engages in corporatism,[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) 5. implements or is a totalitarian regime. I believe we are seeing numbers 1, 2 (no real incidences of violence yet) occur and certainly a strong trend towards the contemporary version of number 4. Some might argue number 3 as well. I say we see a rise of jingoistic fervor from the right with claims that those that don’t support the president or the convervative agenda are unpatriotic. I find these claims broadcast and printed in major media and all spun up from many conservative blogs. These include suggestions of afflicting violence and hate-speech from these sources that is propagandistic. Meanwhile FCC ‘decency standards’ are leading to self-censorship although few voices in the major media are crying out against hate-speech, or suggesting self-censorship on it there. Political bigotry is on the rise in a very divided nation. I see increasing legislation and huge tax cuts favoring large corporations that continue to merge into ever larger entities. Little is done to reduce the number of jobs and ‘invisible’ pre-tax dollars going off shore. Impediments are being put in place against legal redress for individuals and award caps placed upon them against large corporations when individuals or participants of class actions have been harmed through corporate negligence or actual lawlessness. This includes strategies that lead towards the elimination of juries deciding on the outcome of these cases. I also think that if you aren’t going to abandon your insistence on comparing life in 2005 to historical references of fascism and respect the OP’s request to discuss _**the general populace’s mindset that precedes the rise of fascism, rather than any direct comparisons to previous leaders/models (eg, Hitler/Germany, Mussolini/Italy)**_, you’re wasting your time making arguments that overall do not apply to this thread. We all understand that fascism in the 21st century is not going to look like fascism that arose seventy orf eighty years ago. No one should expect a carbon copy of it. It would have a modern flavor, and besides, should any neo-fascists with half a brain be at work in high places in our country, they are going have to sell it in a different, more American way to gain favor with our populous. Nevertheless, while the game plan may be different, the warning signs will still be familiar. These are straightforward examples. Yet no one claiming that indicators of potential fascism do not exist has yet to respond to them. Make your arguements that these things are not happening and perhaps we’ll begin to take your counter-claims seriously. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/239 "2005-02-23T01:11:34Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > I believe we are seeing numbers 1, 2 (no real incidences of violence yet) Regarding #1, do you mean something like “My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you: Ask what you can do for your country.”-- John F. Kennedy. That sure is an exaltation of the state above the individual. It’s a few years old, but I don’t think many politicians today would denounce it. > [@](#): > > I say we see a rise of jingoistic fervor from the right with claims that those that don’t support the president or the convervative agenda are unpatriotic. > > I find these claims broadcast and printed in major media and all spun up from many conservative blogs. These include suggestions of afflicting violence and hate-speech from these sources that is propagandistic. Meanwhile FCC ‘decency standards’ are leading to self-censorship although few voices in the major media are crying out against hate-speech, or suggesting self-censorship on it there. Political bigotry is on the rise in a very divided nation. I think I also see the political bigotry and a divided nation you’re talking about. “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for.” –[Howard Dean](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47526-2005Jan29.html), Chairman of the Democratic Party. Are those the kinds of things you were talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723/240 "2005-02-23T02:31:26Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > 1. engages in corporatism,[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism). . . > > and certainly a strong trend towards the contemporary version of number 4. . . . > I see increasing legislation and huge tax cuts favoring large corporations that continue to merge into ever larger entities. Little is done to reduce the number of jobs and ‘invisible’ pre-tax dollars going off shore. Impediments are being put in place against legal redress for individuals and award caps placed upon them against large corporations when individuals or participants of class actions have been harmed through corporate negligence or actual lawlessness. This includes strategies that lead towards the elimination of juries deciding on the outcome of these cases. I think you’re engaging in some equivocation there. The kind of corporatism you saw in Italian fascism was, as the Wikipedia article says, one in which groups of the same industry or economic groups are put together, and they collaborate in government. It’s a way to get around class differences, and is descended from syndicalism. Modern corporatism is just big corporations having influence in government. It’s that second, modern definition that you might be seeing nowadays in this country. You don’t really see traditional corporatism in modern America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-fascism-the-irony-of-democracy-and-why-the-left-should-be-worried/289723.md?page=13)