# American flag = military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840 "2018-01-30T22:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/1 "2018-01-30T22:25:19Z")
When NFL anthem protests started I would hear stuff like “they are dishonoring our troops” and “our troops died for that flag” Is that the only meaning of the flag? Seems like it stands for the country, not just the military. Anyone disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/2 "2018-01-30T22:28:34Z")
Depends on if it has a gold fringe on it or not. Um. Anyway. Yeah, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/3 "2018-01-30T22:31:29Z")
also my alma mater before they play the anthem says something like "we honor our troops " ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/4 "2018-01-30T22:33:24Z")
When you want to feel insulted but can’t justify it, the easy alternative is to claim outrage because some other group has been insulted, i.e. “the troops”. As to the question, the U.S. is not a military dictatorship. The flag does not specifically, let alone solely, represent the American military. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/5 "2018-01-30T22:36:14Z")
Nationalism and more specifically Fascism needs loyalty to the state despite it’s actions, and also requires an “enemy” in order to attract adherents. > [@](#): > > “Propaganda … serves more to justify ourselves than to convince others; and the more reason we have to feel guilty, the more fervent our propaganda.” > ― Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements > [@](#): > > “The enemy—the indispensible devil of every mass movement—is omnipresent. He plots both outside and inside the ranks of the faithful. It is his voice that speaks through the mouth of the dissenter, and the deviationists are his stooges. If anything goes wrong within the movement, it is his doing. It is the sacred duty of the true believer to be suspicious. He must be constantly on the lookout for saboteurs, spies and traitors.” > ― Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements The strong adherence and value placed on the flag which is placed on a pillar as a symbol of the state is a tool to help accomplish those needs for a mass movement and for authoritarian nationalism that would fail if based on a more abstract ideological basis. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/6 "2018-01-30T22:36:50Z")
I associate the flag with the Boy Scouts, a paramilitary organization. Or good prices at the local used car dealership ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/7 "2018-01-30T22:37:32Z")
Exactly, it’s just a trick - you can be a critic of the republic, it is in the Constitution, but then if you throw in “the troops” that’s just a way to shut up the critics and ignore the point of the protest. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/8 "2018-01-30T22:40:19Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I associate the flag with the Boy Scouts, a paramilitary organization. > > Or good prices at the local used car dealership I think most Americans would be surprised that Boy Scouts was started by a Brit in Britain. They think of Boy Scouts as 100% American. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/9 "2018-01-30T22:42:17Z")
To provide a cite, remember that the American Legion (one of those who pushed for the reverence to the flag) was a huge fan Benito Mussolini and Fascism. > [@](#): > > “If ever needed the American Legion stands ready to protect our country’s institutions and ideals as the Fascisti dealt with the destructionists who menaced Italy.” – Alvin Owsley I am using Fascism in that context and not as a slur, even if I do find the movement repugnant personally. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/10 "2018-01-30T22:52:13Z")
in case you missed it , the Pentagon had a program for a few years where they paid pro sports teams to do "patriotic " events such as honoring troops returning from overseas. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/11 "2018-01-30T22:54:07Z")
The flag = the country, not specifically the military. But the military is made up of people who believe that the country is worth risking and sacrificing one’s life for, and dishonoring the country (by way of dishonoring the flag) is an insult to that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/12 "2018-01-30T22:57:43Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > … But the military is made up of people who believe that the country is worth risking and sacrificing one’s life for, … Lots of people outside the military believe that too. They just don’t get paid for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/13 "2018-01-30T22:59:21Z")
cops and firefighters risk their lives to do their jobs for the town or city or state where they work. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/14 "2018-01-30T23:02:29Z")
While it is anecdotal, every veteran I know who I have asked about their reasons for joining cited protecting freedoms as their primary cause. They universally shared that they felt that the American flag = military concept diminished what they valued most. Obviously this is subject to selection bias, but it is important to call out that the above potential claim is no where near a universal sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/15 "2018-01-30T23:11:15Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > When NFL anthem protests started I would hear stuff like “they are dishonoring our troops” and “our troops died for that flag” > > Is that the only meaning of the flag? Seems like it stands for the country, not just the military. Anyone disagree? The national flag, unsurprisingly, represents the nation. It does not represent the military. There are other flags to represent the Army, Navy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/16 "2018-01-30T23:23:19Z")
Procrustus: > [@](#): > > Lots of people outside the military believe that too. But those people aren’t actually doing that very thing, are they? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/17 "2018-01-30T23:26:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Procrustus: > > But those people aren’t actually doing that very thing, are they? Neither is a drone pilot sitting on their chair in Topeka. Nor is the USAF warehouse worker pushing boxes around in Ogden Utah. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/18 "2018-01-30T23:26:47Z")
When a group of people go so far as to trek halfway across the globe to wave the flag in the faces of innocent people minding their own business, you tend to associate the symbol with them. Similarly i associate Mickey Mouse with Walt Disney and not with the millions of young children who seek to hug him and wear his watches. The military is like the Trekies of the flag while the rest of us are normies. Have you ever seen how they gesticulate in front of it. They write manuals on how to handle it and all that shit. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/19 "2018-01-30T23:31:56Z")
Do we only honer 20% of our veterans if combat exposure is the test of patriotism? > **[5 Military Myths Busted](https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-myths.html)** > > There are many misconceptions and myths about the military floating around out there. > [@](#): > > About 80 percent of the jobs in the military are non-combat occupations. Or do we also filter that respect only for those who didn’t join to protect a flag but place more value on the 1st amendment? Is there a simple flow chart on when compulsory acts of patriotism are required, or do I get a pass for respecting the individuals more than forced displays of allegiance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/20 "2018-01-30T23:34:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Neither is a drone pilot sitting on their chair in Topeka. Nor is the USAF warehouse worker pushing boxes around in Ogden Utah. The difference, of course, is that drone pilot and that warehouse worker can get new duty assignments that place them in more direct harm’s way. Right? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=2)